From Cafe and the Vox Media Podcast Network, welcome to stay tuned.

I'm Preet Bharara.

So whether we're reading more serious books about democracy in our book clubs or talking about it, family gatherings, I think Thanksgiving is going to be lit for a bunch of families this year.

That's something that we can all do.

That's Joyce Vance. As many of our listeners will know, her resume is long. She's a former

U.S. Attorney for the Northern District of Alabama, a law professor at the University of Alabama,

a senior fellow at the Brennan Center,

author of the popular Substack Newsletter Civil Discourse, she's the co-host of the podcast Sisters in

Law, and also, of course, my co-host on the Cafe Insider podcast where we unpack legal issues

making the headlines. Now, Joyce is also a published author. She's out with her first book, Giving Up is Unforgivable, a manual for keeping a democracy.

Earlier this week at an event organized by the 92nd Street Y in Manhattan,

Joyce and I sat down to talk about the book, the state of our democracy,

and what all of us can do to bolster the rule of law.

Then I'll answer your questions about George Santos's pardon

and the U.S. military attacking ships in the Caribbean.

That's coming up. Stay tuned.

Support for this show comes from Shopify.

With Shopify, it's easy to create your brand, open up for business, and get your first sale.

Use their customizable templates, powerful social media tools, and a single dashboard for managing it all.

The best time to start your new business is right now, because established in 2025 has a nice ring to it, doesn't it?

Sign up for a $1 per month trial period at Shopify.com slash Vox Business, all lowercase.

Go to Shopify.com slash Vox Business to start selling with Shopify today.

...