Are you ever honest? Let me ask the question a different way. Have you ever told a lie?

You can see the problem. We've all told little white lies. Some of us have

even told more than that. This unfortunately is more pervasive than we think. It's called ethical

fading. And it's something that Dr.

Lenny Wong has spent many years studying. He spent 20 years in the military studying

why good cultures turn bad. And I actually learned about ethical fading from him.

In a world in which everybody's trying to get ahead,

and sometimes we do so by doing things that are ethically questionable,

the question is what can we do about it?

This is a bit of optimism.

Lenny, so good to see you.

Good to see you good to see you Simon

you and I met a bunch of years ago

I heard you speak at a conference

and you were the one who introduced me to this concept of ethical fading

which I ended up writing about in the infinite game.

Correct.

This concept I find so fascinating and unfortunately the reason I think it's fascinating

is it's pervasive in our society today.

Craig me if I get this wrong, but ethical fading is the phenomenon

where a large group of people, a culture of an organization,

make unethical decisions believing that they are well within

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