My guest today is Michael Oslin, who also goes by Misha, who is a historian at the Hoover Institute.

And he's written a fantastic new book about the Declaration of Independence, which is slightly

purposely titled National Treasure.

I did show my kids that movie a while ago. I'm sure you

get that a lot. Welcome to the podcast. Charlie, thank you so much for having me on.

So it's funny, you start the book by saying you were six when you first saw the Declaration

of Independence and then you say you pinned it up on your bedroom wall,

or rather you pinned up a copy of it on your bedroom wall.

I have it behind me.

You can't see it on the other side of my office as well, hanging over my desk.

And yesterday, because I just reorganized my office, my 10-year-old came in and was looking at it.

I can't really read it because the text is too small. And he said, what is that? I said,

it's a declaration of independence. And he paused. And he said, it's not the real one. But I feel

as if I should give him your book because the question of what is the real one and when it was signed and how it should be interpreted is a lot more contested in many ways than today we take for granted.

So I want to go right back to the beginning and start with what must seem like a completely

obvious question, but perhaps is not.

What is the Declaration of Independence?

Well, it's a great question because to the members of the Continental Congress, the declaration

was, if not an afterthought, it was a piece of administrative business

that had to be done because for them, the important thing had already been accomplished,

and that was July 2nd and the vote for independence.

So in the minds of the leaders of the colonies, come states, come nation, they already were independent

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