Heading down after Greengate and it was just one of those moments where even when I finally won I was like, yeah, I won but I'd never beat and trace in here. Welcome to the Trailhead of Trail Runner Nation. here again at the Trailhead with some guests that are going to have some fun stories, interesting perspectives and maybe a little motivation for us to become better runners, healthier athletes and maybe better human beings. Today we run with Ian Charmin and Hal Kornramin. Can you imagine spending an hour running with these guys and having them tell you stories? And we can ask any questions we want and they have answers. Join us. Real tips from Real Runners. This is Clarity on the Trail, presented by Tufosi Optics. We're helping you see the path ahead, more clearly with listener-submitted gold and T Fosi's world class lens technology.

Today's to Fosi clarity on the trail tip came from our text line, our new text line, and this one comes from Kathy Sloan. This tip has to do with recovery, and this is what she says, my recovery tip, give yourself a week of grace. That is total rest for one week. I've done this after a back-to-back 100 with a five-week separation and recently after a 200 in March, now building from a next 100. Give yourself a week of grace. Thanks, Kathy. We'll be sending Kathy a pair of Tiffosi Optics new Sanctum SL sunglasses. Speaking of clarity on the trail, I just got a pair of the glasses with that photo tech lens. These are the ones that transition depending on the ambient light out there. They actually adapt to give you more clarity on the trail. You too can win a pair of the new Sanctum SL glasses by sharing your recovery tip. We're speaking about recovery specifically now. You can either do that on our new text line, which is again, only available here in the US, 916-235-3928, or you can post on Instagram, tag at Tafosi Optics and at TrailRunnerNation and use the hashtag clarity on the trail. If you can't remember any of that, go to trailrunnernation.com, click on the deals tab and scroll down to Tafosi and all the information's there. And you can use the code to get 20% off their entire store. Welcome to another edition of trailrunnernation. My name is Don Freeman. I'm Scott War and as ultra runners and going out and training as many miles as we do, you know, we all enjoy good stories. Whether it's on the trail, whether it's with a beer after we've finished our run, but stories are what bring us together. And they don't always have to be true. Sometimes they're stretched a little bit. I know Don, I can't read, I don't know if Don knows any true stories. I think all of his stories have been exaggerated over the years. But we've brought two people on the podcast today to talk about their stories. Coach Ian Charman is back with us again. And a lot of times we just talk about the technical aspects of running with with Ian. And today hopefully we'll bring up some actual stories, some entertaining stories. And we're super excited to have Hal Turner back on the podcast. We did our original podcast with him 12 years ago when he published his book The Field Guide to Ultra Running. And this is my copy. It's a very good book. If you want to learn more about that, we'll have the link to that in the show notes. Hal Kerner, if you don't know who he is, he's a two-time winner of Western States. He's a hard rock 100 champion. He's actually one of only a few people that have won both. He's strung together five straight wins at Bear 100. He's won Angela Crest twice. And along the route, he also was one of the stars of Unbreakable, which I'm sure we're gonna get into. It's a film. And I just, hey, I don't know

if any of you know this, but I was in research about five minutes before the podcast. I looked to find out where can you see Unbreakable now. It's on YouTube. You can watch it for free. So I think one of these nights I'm gonna actually sit down and watch Unbreakable again. Ian? Well, you may not realise this, but in that amazing movie, I am in it for about two seconds

as well, because that was my first Western States. Oh, really? When it's slipping and sliding through the high country, I was dressed in like tennis shorts, jacket that wasn't for running. I was holding a plastic supermarket bag, which had a camera, and it not a camera phone, but a camera, but there is just like a split second where you can't tell it's me, but I know it's me, and then it gets back to the actual story of the four guys, including Hal, who were at the front. I'm gonna look for that Easter egg. Because that was my first 100 mileer. My plan was to avoid going out too fast, so I personally took a camera so that in the high country I'd take a few photos. And so it cost me, I'd know, 30 seconds in the first 50k. But when I get the top of the first climb, a couple of other points, I just run along, take it out, stop for a couple of seconds, and keep going. But it put me in the mentality of take it easy, no rush, this is a long day. And I think that was a pretty good tactic for first 100 mile. How did you know who Ian was in that year? Was he even it was there? It was Ian even a name in the sport. That's a great question. I mean, I know Ian has had a long history with running, but at that point in time, no. The moment I knew who Ian Charman was was probably lap four of Rocky Raccoon a couple of years later. What, six months later? Was that just February after that? Oh, 2010, yeah. Yeah, it was right off to me. And I thought I was in pretty good shape, but we were in for a rude awakening on that day, but I remember running with Tony all day and I was like, I don't know who that is up there, but they're going to come back to us. And then the second lap happened and the third lap happened on the fourth lap, I was like, we're definitely not catching that person in. That hell is the problem. So obviously Ian's been synonymous with both your ending ever since. But 2010, I had my site set on a couple people just like Ian, you know, I was trying to it easy and get through that race, but Unbreakable has become you know that that movie opened the door I think for all training during that time period during that decade And it's still responsible for a lot of the people we still see coming into this Here's I have to say I was I was actually star struck when I passed you because you had a bad day that in that race And I think it was heading down a steep bit towards the river.

Maybe it's like mile 70.

And again, you would have had no reason to know who I was. I've not even done a hundred mile or anything. But I passed you, like, why not? Isn't that hell-curned? Isn't he the guy who won it the last two times? So I was like, oh, I know the names of these people I've heard of and this is even before unbreakable where you get to know people a bit more

But yeah, you wouldn't know that and you definitely have no reason to know who I was in that race But I remember that moment where where you I think I said something like you're okay And you're like oh my like my quads are sharp or something like that Hey Ian, how long have you have you maintained that that camera carrying strategy to make sure you don't go out too fast? That was the only one.

Okay.

Because my next 100 mile I was Rocky Raccoon. And so I was trying to be a bit more dialed in for that one from what I'd learned. But the first one I just, I knew it was unknown territory. So I was trying to be sensible, really. And I knew it was gonna get hard. And a load of stuff went wrong. I'd never gone wrong before.

When I was going down to the river in an exposed section

just before the river,

I was literally wobbling back and forth

because the heat got to me. I did zero heat training. I did not know what I was doing. This was the longest run I'd ever done. I'd never done anything quite like that. And so I had mistakes, but because I was being conservative, it all kind of worked out and I got eighth in the end. Speaking of Starstruck, I think it may have been the first screening of Unbreakable was at the sports basement in San Francisco and Don and I went over to that screening and we sat behind Hal and Tony, Jeff and JB Benna before it was starting. He's on his computer still editing. He's doing some final edits like minutes before we showed he showed the movie. But it was it was an iconic movie back in the day. I'm super excited to go back I'm glad it's on YouTube now. Now Ian you mentioned the heat western states states is one of those races that can have a really bad heat issue. In 2009, when Hal won Western states, it was one of those years. It was triple digits down in the canyons. And I think I'm trying to think, I think even Scott Jericho was running that year and I think he ended up dropping. Tell us about that heat hell and how did you get through it? There's got to be some stories of hallucinations and carnage on a hot day like that at Western states.

Yeah. hallucinations and and carnage on a hot day like that at Western states. Yeah, the, um, it has, uh, it has that reputation, typically it's the hottest day of the year, right? Cause somehow no one's had a chance to prepare for it, you know, and everything comes together and it's as hot as it's as it's been all been all year, right? Training for that is almost impossible. I know when I went there in 2001, I had the same effects, but failed me, I guess in a way, that Ian was talking about, you know, just wobbling down to the river many times after leaving the river, you know, the canyon, you know, head down to the river, that part of the successive going through El Dorado, going through volcano. You think you're gonna get a break, you think you get up on the ridge and hit some a little bit of a breeze, but you're right back down in it. And I think the successive nature of it is what really, it really takes it out of you. And some of, just like Ian, pretty brilliant to bring a camera along, helps spark some memories. But some of the few memories I do have or heading down to the canyon or heading up out of it and tracing would pass me. And I thought I was doing so well and she'd pass me and she'd look over and she'd just be like, yeah, it's just like an oven down here. And at the same time, you know,

watching someone else have to get through it in that amount of pain, you know, you really do have to get a hold of at least specificity in your training to get used to a little bit of heat. I never got used to it until I moved to Ashland, growing up in Denver, our hottest day was probably 80, It's really dry.

And then I dabbled with just having to be in a sauna for like almost an hour. I would go in an hour, probably five times a week, just to practice drinking, moving fluids through, and just getting used to it, because it was, it's like someone has a giant hair dryer in your face for, I don't know, eight hours, you know? And I think that mental exhaustion compounded with just what it's doing to you physically. I don't know. It might be even worse. And I think that's one of the hardest things you have to try to get through. And I remember watching stories from bad water and later when guys jumped in coolers. I mean, and now that's what a lot of folks do is getting the ice bath. Try to get the body temperature down. I'm carrying two hand-hills, one with water, one with drink, and mainly that drink is going over the top of my head and it's gone in like 40 seconds. I guess you just, it goes along with the ultra-mine set and that you're trying to keep through Little many things to get you through a little, you know, it goes along with the Ultra Mindset and that you're trying to keep through, you know, little many things to get you through, little, you know, mind resets to get you through. And so I think that played a little bit of a part in how I managed that. Also preparation, I think, was key. And probably having done it five or six times before, you know, at least, you know, that's a relative luxury to be able to say,

but I mean, that certainly helped by the time we got to 2009. No doubt. I was like to think that

the pace was doing something and I was creating such a headwind, but you know, none of that's true.

As you were in that sauna, I'm wondering, are you just sitting in that enduring it? Or are you

standing up and down or jumping jacks? Are you doing any actual movement in there? Yeah, I would do a bunch of pushups just to get my heart rate up and to get some activity. And then it was like going through motions where yeah, I was, there was a lot of mindfulness. There's a lot of focus. I think one of the key things is also just visualization of where the day where I was on the course, retracing footsteps. I think that was one of the big keys to my success over the years that a lot of these different races was being able to, you know, go back in my mind where I was in certain places having, and you know, being able to identify the topography in the terrain and just trying to make the distancing shorter, anyway I could. And so I think that played a key role as well.

This question, I'm gonna jump in there Scott, because I bet you I know what you're gonna ask, is visualization, how much, to both of you, how much visualization do you do to prepare for a race? Is that part of a key component? Yeah, if it'd be Western States obviously, when you know what you're looking, what was gonna happen, it's a bit easier to prepare for it, because you know what was difficult in the past.

So it helps to run on the course.

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