The amount of mental load foot care is significantly less than hydration and nutrition, and even what clothes you're going to wear.

So just be preventive. Welcome to the Trailhead of Trail Runner Nation.

It's another week.

It's another week. It's another run with a guest that's going to help us become smarter, faster, better, healthier athletes and maybe better human beings. You know the old saying in this sports guy, you just got to put one foot in front of the other. Well, we're talking today about your feet because if they're not both working, you're not going to be going down the trail. Join us. Real tips from Real Runners. This is Clarity on the Trail presented by Tophosi Optics. We're helping you see the path ahead more clearly with listeners submitted gold and Tophosi's world class Lens. This week's tip regarding recovery after hard workouts comes from a Laura Lee Malin. Laura Lee says she uses active recovery after a hard effort. She says don't sit around on the couch, rather walk around the block, play soccer or go for a swim. You know, that's really important. It's easy to congeal then kind of stiffen up if you're just sitting around the house so I think this active recovery is very very good and at Lorley Malene is going to get a pair of Tophosi Optics new Sanctum SL sunglasses center for that great tip. We want to hear more of what you guys have to say about what you do for recovery after the hard workout. Post it on Instagram tag at tofosioptix and at trail runner nation and use the hashtag clarity on the trail or we're going to try this. We have a text line for those who live in the US. You can text us that tip at 916-235-3928. Each week we'll choose one submission, read it right here on the podcast. And that runner gets a brand new pair of Tophosi's latest model, the Sanctum SL. I love them. Check out Tophosioptics.com and check out our deals tab at trailrunnernation.com for a 20% off using the coupon code TR in 20. Welcome to another edition of trailrunnernation. My name is Don Freeman and I'm Scott War and welcome back. We are revisiting our feet. You know, your feet carry you through every single mile that you run. You can't leave them behind. Yet most of us only think about these feet when things start to fail. Why do we wait this long for things to fall apart and what can we do to fix these feet? We talked about that with Dr. Tanya Olsen a month ago, and now we're back with her because we only touched the tip of the iceberg. We talked about how things, how to fix things when things go wrong, but we're going to flip the script today and we're going to talk about building tougher, more resilient feet. So problems never show up in the first place or at least it reduces the risk of showing up in the first place from some of the daily habits that we can can implement to talking how we turn our feet from fragile, these fragile passengers that are just coming along for the ride into durable trail partners. Now, Dr. Tony Olsen, if you didn't catch that first episode, go back and listen to it. She's a doctor of physical therapy, she's a foot care expert. she's the co-author of fixing your feet with John Vonhoff. It's now, I think, Tonya, on the seventh edition. That's right. And we're going to link that because you need to have that. That should be the handbook. One of the handbooks that you need to have in your library is an ultra runner. I would say, Scott, I would say put it in your drop bag. Put it in your drop bag when you think you might be needing it because it is a trail manual when you're out there. And you can put it in your shoes in case you start getting holes in them as well. She's worked behind dozens of ultras for many years helping us to fix things and really make us better runners out there on the trail. So Dr. Tonya, thanks for joining us. Recently you wrote, well, we mentioned an original article that you wrote I think last year, but you recently, an ultra-running magazine wrote an article in the February edition, where you write that runners meticulously plan nutrition and pacing and all these other things, but often neglect their feet. So today I want to ask you, start this episode off, how can we train our feet to be more of an asset than a potential risk? What do we need to do to make them strong? This is a most fantastic question and I'm so glad that you're asking it. Tony, we only have one question. I mean, you were going to have to stretch this as long as you can. Oh, you know I can. There's so much to talk about. All right. So here's the thing. It's a lesser process of like making your feet more resilient because think about it. You're running on them all every day or whenever you're like they're They're log in the miles. They're not you know They're getting resilient just by you using them during when you're running and racing point the more importantly We need to train our minds to actually pay attention to our feet At all, paying attention to one's feet in any way, shape or form, I would gather to surmise, would be 99% improvement on anyone who's a runner. How often does anyone actually look at their feet and try to get the information that their feet are telling them? A whole lot of nobody, nobody's doing, and that's what my platform is, is prevention and that prevention happens best when your foot care strategy is specifically geared towards your particular situation. And observation is the most critical thing to be doing. Because think about your hydration, nutrition, and equipment thought process. You're constantly trying stuff out during training. You're noticing every little bit of thing, the closer you get to the bigger the race is, you're like, you're dialing in your nutrition, you're dialing in your hydration, you're practicing running at night with a headlamp, which I never quite understood that,

doesn't really make any sense to me, it's not easy. But that's just me, anyhow, that's a side topic. So you're doing all the things, you're checking to make sure your shorts fit and you like your shirt and your butt looks cute, all that, very important things. But you don't even look at your feet until now a week before the race or in the middle of a race that you've spent you know six months or however long Preparing for now all of a sudden when your feet start breaking down And now people realize that they have feet at the end of their legs that meet need attention So I think the biggest thing is just pay Attention to your feet and there's a and they're they're talking to you They're telling you you need. They're telling you where their weaknesses are, where your feet need more support, where the skin has prone to breakdown, where you have strengthen mobility issues that can contribute to foot care related issues or increase the chance for having foot care related issues and then knowing your history. So that's kind of a really long answer to a rather short question and we can fine tune. No, no. I love where it's going and I could see that you really could talk about this for 45 minutes without without taking a break or a breath. No, but here here's my question for you. Let's start it off with this. I've got two people that both sit in inner chair. Somebody that's never run before and an experienced ultra runner. Tell me the difference between those two feet. What do you see that has changed and adapted to heavy trail work versus someone that, you know, where's a pair of slippers and goes out and collects the newspaper each day if that's not dating myself. But that's all they do. Not a lot of stuff. Tell me about the two different feet. Yeah, so that depends on what your daily life looks like. Of course, you know, I'm kind of pedantic in the way that I answer things. If you live, like for example, if you live in the south and you're wearing flip flops and unsupportive shoes, and you spend a lot of time like walking the dog and doing stuff like that. There may be some, your skin adaptation on your feet, maybe very similar to somebody who runs a fair amount, but lives in more than a northern climate where you're wearing protective shoes and boots because it's an African cold and stupid outside. But for the most part, brand new runner is gonna have, depending on their daily life and their history, is going to have their skin's going to be less modified by the running that they're doing. Whereas an experienced runner is going to have a more protective tissue that has developed and they also may have more mobility impairments that have become introduced by a multiple, multitude of choices that the runner makes. So to make it an easier answer, a new runner is going to have baby skin and an experienced runner is going to have a more tougher skin, but also may have some more complications. You know, I have heard two sides to this argument. You know, when you're out there, you want to develop these calluses on the bottom of your feet and make them more leathery, right? And that's supposed to help you. But then I've heard on the other flip side that we should be applying lotions and making sure that our skin is nice and supple and that sort of thing, that if you have these calluses, a blister can conform underneath the callus and then you have even more intense repair going on or more issues with trying to fix them in the middle of a long race or something. Should we, at the end of a run, should we be putting on some cream of some sort, massaging that in and making sure our skin is nice and supple or should we try to build this fortress of callus? Okay. The answer is somewhere in between. Okay. And, you know, and it does depend, but the answer really is in between. The main, as a physical therapist, I've worked in wound care. I understand tissue healing, I understand tissue mechanics. That's where my advice is a little bit different than a lot of folks. Maintaining and preserving your skin integrity is critical. And that's where your daily, your daily or weekly foot care routine comes in to play. The more your skin is able to act like or is able to have the components of healthy skin, the better off that skin is, the more resilient that skin is. So the shorter answer is that, well for one, calluses are information. It's information about your strength, about your mobility, about how your foot moves when you're running. It tells you about the fit of the shoe and whether or not that's the best shoe for you for that, for the particular distance. All of those variables contribute to the formation of calluses. So callus formation is a normal consequence of using your feet or a body part like your hands. Like if you're shoveling, you're going to get thickened skin where that friction is happening on your hands and on a daily basis and on a training basis for feet. Calacies are the protection that your skin builds up where it needs to happen. Where and so during the average training, calacies are not a liability or less likely to be a liability. Where they become a liability is what you're talking is what you were talking about is during a race. And races are generally longer than the your longest training run. And so you can have what's called shearing forces that can create a blood blister underneath the callus. And so a callus, when it's get masterated, that thickened skin becomes, it swells. It's like your fingertips, like if you're in the, if you're washing dishes or you're sitting the hot tub, that's skid that outer layer, the epidermis. It will swell and a callus in particular will then have a more rougher profile and it's so it's taking the callus will take up more space in your shoe. It has a rougher profile so that skin will actually start moving in the shoe with the way that your foot is moving. And that traps the dermis, which is the layer of skin that houses the blood vessels and nerves. It will trap the dermis between the epidermis and the bone underneath. And that's how a blood blister forms. And that ends up to be significantly more painful than just a blister that's on the dead tissue, which is what the epidermis is formed by.

So, kind of a long answer, but I would do the, like doing the math to have your calluses be like medium calluses, light to medium calluses are less of a liability during a race than of the bigger dialysis. Now there are always outliers who have gnarly, super tough feet and these are usually people who have appropriate, they just have good feet for running. They don't generally have problems. So just because one person has massive calluses and they never have problems, that's not the only variable. The calluses are not the only variable that's contributing to whether or not they get bloodlisters or those calluses become a liability. There's like five other variables that contribute to having foot care issues and tissue breakdown during a race. And Tanya, I don't want this to become a Scott War intervention podcast, but you mentioned something that I'm going to try to expound upon that you said. You said in your daily foot care regime. Now, I don't have one. And I don't know if if Don, if you have a daily foot care routine, I cut my toenails when they start to scratch and make marks on the hardwood floor. I don't soak my feet in ebbsum salts or put any kind of foot cream on them. I want to know what is your foot care regime and what can I implement that you're doing that can help my feet become more of a runner's foot? Okay. So you need to look at your feet. Okay, let me write this down because I don't even look at my feet. That's something I don't even do. Look at my feet. Okay. Yes. Step one, look at your feet. Notice where the calluses are forming. That could do information about how efficient you're moving and they can inform shoe choices and that kind of things. But just notice where they are. That's important. So that's giving you information about your feet that can help you kind of problem solve if things start going south. Maintaining the integrity of your foot skin is a very good thing to be doing. It depends on where you live. So having a routine where you're actually looking at your feet and gathering the information that they're giving you, whether it's on a daily basis, probably more like a weekly basis after your long run is where you're going to get the most information from your feet. Because you're going to notice if there's any red spots and you need to look at your feet immediately after you've gone for your long run. Because you need to be assessing for how macerated arm is my foot skin. If you take your shoes and socks off and you were out there for four hours, you didn't use any sort of skin barrier anti-mazuration product and your skin is wet and white and wrinkly. You know that your feet kind of, they're approaching needing to have some protection. That at four hours your skin is starting to be in a place where it's getting more fragile. If you notice that your calluses are mass-rated. If you notice that you have any weird hot spots on your toes, that sort of thing. Just look at your feet. Look at your toenails. Are you noticing that you're having any red lines on especially the big toe? If there's like a red line across somewhere on your big toenail, that's an indicator that that toe is getting extra pressure and that you can potentially end up having, that can be a reason for losing

a toenail during a long run. And so, a weekly take a look at my feet after your long run and then do a nice foot care routine. File down your nails, put some nice foot care cream or salve, whichever your favorite is I I like something like the squirrel's nut butter, the happy toes, like something that has tea tree oil and peppermint oil in it is always really good for the feet because that's antibacterial and anti-fungal and those are thing you know fungus especially is something to be mindful of preventing for the feet because if you have athlete's feet, that makes your feet more more frat, a meat, foot skin, more fragile. So I would say on a weekly basis, now if you live where it's super dry or if you're out on a on the beach or on a boat every day, like, you know, we're getting warmer weather in the summer or here Florida. Spring will happen in the Northern climates at some point. Apparently March is coming in like a lion this year. I'm looking at the forecast, but summer is going to happen. So if your feet are dry, more dry because of your lifestyle or the environment, then you may want to moisturize a couple times a week. But really, let's just keep the bar nice and accessible and manageable and realistic. Once a week after your long run, take a good look at your feet, keep your toenails filed down because here's a thing. The most common thing for people to do is leave their toenails for before the race and then they get all caught up in the pre-race rep preparation and they go into the race and their toenails end up to be a liability during that race. And getting your big toenail wrenched up off of the nail bed and having a massive blood blister underneath there is exquisitely painful and really would just, it's really kind of ruins your race. So having a regular routine will offload the amount of time and effort you need to take like right before a big race. Is that how... Dr. We were talking earlier about foot conditioning, getting your feet in shape. And you mentioned that if you're out in an environment where you're wearing sandals a lot and exposing your feet to the elements instead of being locked up in a shoe, based on that comment, should we be walking around without shoes on? Sometimes it's tough enough our feet. Should we give it a bit of a workout? Yeah, that's a really good question. So, thinking about foot care has kind of progressed over the years. There were times where, you know, and it's in the book and fixing your feet where we would recommend using products to toughen up your foot skin, like black tea bags that have like the tannins and kind of soak in your feet and like in and those sorts of components are using mushrooms, footsav, those sorts of things. But really at the end of the day, running is what toughens up your feet. So you don't need to be doing anything specific to toughen up your foot skin because at the end of the day, a foot skin that is more tough is actually more fragile because it doesn't have the elasticity and it doesn't have the ability to stay healthy during a long race. Okay Dr. Olson, I'm going to go back to that chair. We have our non-runner sitting next to our veteran runner and we talked about what differences do you see between these two feet? We talked about the skin, but I'm really interested in hearing what your thoughts are on the muscles themselves, the ligaments, the tendons, the arch in the foot. I know we're all genetically a bit different. Some people are pronated and not, so that may not have anything to do with running. But's got to be some structural changes, some adaptations that happen for miles on the trail. Oh, this, this question Don is absolutely gold. Good. Let's do this. I love this question. And so essentially and it, it just teased off into like I've been a footcares specialist It's 20 years. And as a physical therapist in particular, I'm trained to notice patterns. And then I just, in general, notice patterns. And with the thousands of feet that I've seen over the years, what I have noticed is there's a compilation of factors that put a person at risk for more foot care issues. And that has to do with exactly what you were talking, what you just mentioned. A brand new foot, brand new runner, we're going to say they're going to have, ideally, but it depends on the sports they did when they were younger and kind of how they are naturally. They're strength and mobility in the foot ankle complex. That has a lot to do with how you've been your whole life until you pick up running. But let's just say that somebody who hasn't been a runner, they have the within normal range or within normal limits range of motion or mobility in their ankle and calf complex and their foot and big toe and the subsequent toes, the smaller toes. So we're going to say that they've got good free motion, everything's amazing. So they're going to be that foot ankle toe, big toe complex is going to have more mobility and ideally is going to be less apt to have mobility and strength related issues. or as somebody who's been running for longer, just think about aging. Do we get more flexible and soft? No, we get brittle, we get crinkly, and we lose mobility over time. And so runners in general lose mobility in the foot in the ankle calf complex, lose mobility in the big toe in particular and can start adapting some toe behaviors, lack of a better way of explaining it, that correlate with foot care issues during races. So, there are preventive long-term things that people should be doing to maintain your ankle, calf mobility, and your big toe mobility that Mark's experienced runners should be doing. But a new runner should be starting that in the first place. It was kind of I went off topic, but hopefully it was. It helps me think of this question. What have you seen clinically that there's a correlation between the foot mechanics or lack thereof and knee pain? When you see certain things in the foot, the certain gate pattern or how they're what findings you see in their feet, you can almost predict, do you have medial knee pain here because you see that and you watch your body mechanics change. Oh, that's super interesting. I love you that you bring that now. This is another con, this is another con, quote unquote controversy. Is it, is it the foot affecting the knee or is it the knee affecting the foot? But look at the tiny little foot and those tiny little foot muscles. They're less apt to be affecting the knee. The hip is what affects your entire leg and foot. If you think about it, if you kind of remember physics, like the femur is a massive lever arm that has the potential for imparting significant rotational forces to the knee and subsequently the foot ankle. So like, oh gosh, this is a study I can't remember. A hundred years ago, there's a study that I read, like a five degree drop in the pelvis, which is controlled by your gluteal muscles, specifically the glute medias. A five degrees had a exponential force on the exponentially magnified force on the knee and the foot ankle complex. So really, we should be looking, if you see something in the foot ankle knee happening, it's you want to look upwards at the proximal musculature, the musculature that's big create and creates the movement closer to your center of your body. That's where the power muscles come from, are the ones that are closer to your pelvis. But that's a fantastic question. It really speaks to how important body work is, whether it's a massage therapist or physical therapist, whoever you're going to, to help create some balance, find those tight muscles, weak muscles that aren't firing, to help create some balance in your system, to try to load the body properly. Yeah, so it's less about bodywork because that's passive care that isn't actually affecting muscles. And like it's reducing tension, but it's not changing anything. That last, which is why you continually go to a massage therapist because they're just passively addressing symptoms, but they're not actually changing anything. Because if they were creating meaningful change, then you would go to them like once or twice, and then that particular issue would be solved. And there's nothing wrong. Like body work is great. And it can be very helpful in reducing symptomology and helping with recovery. But at the end of the day, strength in the right places at the right times is most critical in having and using the body in the way that

it was processed, it was designed to move. So the more efficiently you move, the less

apt to the more prone, the less prone you are to injury. And so in the physical therapy

word world, that term is called motor patterns. And that is a motor pattern is the coordination of how muscles are recruited in when you're moving. So it's not just how one muscle is creating force. So when we talk about strength training for runners, create choosing a program that addresses your own mobility and strength. The word I, you know, like in the PT world is impairments. I feel that's a little bit judgy. We don't mean it, Judgy, but the like we'll just they just the strength and mobility that is less than within normal limits. So your strength program should be addressing your specific issues or potential issues. And then also, be training your body to move and have a motor pattern or a muscle recruitment strategy that helps you to move most efficiently. I'm going to make one little comment here. I think Don, you have a follow up question, but here's a comment that is just blowing my mind right now. It shouldn't because it makes complete sense, but I'd never thought of it this way, that some of the issues that I may have with my feet, with blisters, etc. may be an effect or a reaction to poor biomechanics. And so if you were to watch Don and I run together, Don's running form is so much better than mine. And I'm thinking, I wonder if that's the reason why he never has foot problems when it comes to blisters and that sort of thing. Now, yeah, genetics, yeah, well, you know, that sort of stuff. But I'm, that's the thing that's blowing my mind right now that is good biomechanics can have a result on your foot. How it how it yeah. What do you think of that? Yes and um well you know it's it's more it's let I don't like to be judging because like biomechanics is aics is a very broad term and people with different levels of training use it in different ways. I don't want to say poor, we'll just say that there's opportunity for improvement. Here's the thing, the longer you run, the more adaptations are going to happen in the foot ankle complex that are going to create impairments or put you at more of a risk for foot care issues. Because I mean, just looking at you guys right now through this screen, through just chest up, when I used to be a waitress, that's how I recognize the cooks. Because in didn't in the line, you'd only see just that just random. I can see you're built very differently. Like body size, type 2 muscle, percentage. And that just tells me that like somebody who has is more powerful and strong is going to have more range of motion limitations or mobility impairments than somebody who's more of a medium build or a lighter build. That's just because it has to do with type 2 muscle fibers. It has to do with the sports that you did when you were younger because those motor patterns carry on to when you get older. It also has to do with the length of time you've been running. The longer you run, the more your body adapts to running. And so meaning the range of motion, mobility, and strength adapts to how you typically run and the terrain you typically run on, which is why runners, they should be doing things on a regular basis that maintain their mobility in the foot ankle complex, rather than being reactive. Like all runners need to be doing heel raises on an incline when they're brushing their teeth. Like I am all about being a realist. I'm all about not giving people any more home exercises than they actually need. But as a physical therapist, my training is to think about you and how your body is going to be adapting to what you're doing, whether it's your sports and your daily life, but those both combine. How that in 10 years, how is this going to affect you? In 20 years, how is this going to affect you? How is this going to continue? Let's see, you've got a little mobility issue in the big toe. My thinking is, okay, in 10 years, these are the things that are going to, your big toe mobility being

impaired, that changes how your foot moves, which changes how your whole leg moves. How is that going to look in 10 years, 20 years, 30 years? And so I think that for people to have more of a mindset of, I want to maintain the, what I have and prevent getting a crickety and stiff for lack of better ways. And people should have more of that mindset and be thinking about strength training, like having that added layer of I'm doing specific strength training to maintain these other variables that also contribute to foot care issues. Scott, we already diagnosed you with impaired great-toe mobility in our last podcast. That's right. That's right. We did. I knew it. Well, that'd even see it. This episode brought to you by Palova, the five-toe shoe built for runners who want more natural movement on and off the trail. What makes Palova different the design? You get individual tow space, a zero drop platform and a flexible feel that helps your feet move the way they were intended to move. And on the trail, that can mean better ground feel, more natural balance, and freedom to let your toes spread and engage on uneven terrain. Palova offers models with added traction and protection for rugged surfaces so you can stay connected to the trail without giving up confidence underfoot. I was just wearing them last week on our run and I loved every minute of it.

Check out Paluba in see why more runners are rethinking what they're putting on their feet.

That's P-E-L-U-V-A-O-R. Go to trailrunnernation.com, click that deals tab, scroll down and if you use the link there you can get 10% off purchase of Palluba Footwear. Scott, let your feet be feet. As a physical therapist and a rehab and giving people hope again, because I think that's what you're doing. Let's talk about the importance of a wobble board. Tell us, tell us your success story.

If you don't have one, I could tell you

when a friend of mine, the reason I'm asking this,

tell me about why we should consider a wobble board.

I wanna ask what is a wobble board first?

I don't even know what a wobble board is.

So maybe it's the friend I'm the friend you're talking about.

Nope, nope, you are my friend.

That's a wobble board friend. So you stand on on a plate and it has a ball underneath it or some kind of of structure that has not bergus stability and you wobble back and forth. Try to maintain balance. Try not to touch the edge of that of that plate you're standing on and it gives you some proprioceptive retraining. So if muscles have been or ligaments tendons have been torn and damaged, scar tissue comes in to mend it, you lose some proprioceptive feedback, and all of a sudden you're running, and it's like, I'm twisted to my ankle all the time now. What's going on? It never used to do this, and you get directed to a good physical therapist that talks about a wobble board, and you start training. I toss that back to our doctor. Doctor? Okay. If that's not accurate, please straighten it up. So this is another fantabulous question, Don. All right. I will answer. And yeah, so there's a number of things to consider in choosing an intervention. Generally, in the physical therapy world, we will use like joint specific or muscle specific interventions for a short period of time because we want to integrate the entire body in as soon as possible because we want to train that motor pattern. So your whole body is moving properly. Like your whole leg is recruiting the muscles in the most efficient fashion. A wobble board for runners is not something I typically recommend on the regular, because of able to do that. I would not be able to do that. I would not be able to do that. I would not be able to do that. I would not be able to do that. I would not be able to do that. I would not be able to do that. I would not be able to do that. I would not be able to do that. I would not be able to do that. or don't do, especially runners, but athletes in particular, is when they get injured, they rest, and then they don't actually specifically train the neurology back to the affected muscles. And so the term is called the arthrogenic response. When you have an injury or somewhere around a joint, the brain actually turns down or off the muscles, the signals to the muscles surrounding that joint. And so that creates a compensating muscle recruitment pattern. And unless you go to a skilled rehab professional, like a physical therapist who is familiar with runners and who knows how to teach you to get that brain body can recover that brain body connection, that compensating pattern, like, you know, you spread, let's say you

spread your ankle and you're limping around, right? People think that because the limp goes away, that you're not moving differently. But you are the neurology of how the muscles that are are recruited remains in the compensating pattern, even when you go back to your daily, you go back to your sport. So missing, retraining that neurological connection, which is like that proprioceptive connection, especially in the ankle, that's what contributes to the recurrent ankle sprains. And that's where specifically, wobble board is very beneficial, because that trains that balance and proprioception back and creates that that my that brain body connection like so you know back in PT school like you know one of the seminal studies was they measured somebody who'd never people who had never had an ankle sprain and people who'd had ever had an ankle sprain and they measured how fast the muscles responded to like a perturbation and balance. And the ankle that had never been sprained responded twice as fast as the ankle that had ever been sprained, even if it was a mild sprain. And that's how you end up having re-spraining because that neurological connection, that motor pattern, that Properception has not been recovered. And so a wobble board, you know, in my professional opinion is used specifically for balance, Properceptive recovering that proprioceptive feedback for for that impaired ankle complex, it's called an ankle strategy. But think about it though, from an applicability to running, there isn't very much, there really isn't applicability to running. So because when you're running, the terrain isn't moving. Your foot is moving on the terrain. So you're landing on solid ground. The ground isn't moving underneath you. I mean, even if you are on soft sand, like more sand kind of thing, it's still not as similar to a wobble board as more just landing on the trail surface. So that's not a directly transferable skill. A wobble board isn't a directly transferable skill to running. So if I was when I'm rehabbing an athlete who's had an ankle sprain, I get them on the wobble board for a while and then we'll progress them to trail running specific movement patterns because we want we don't want just the ankle complex to be strengthened. Once you get that dial back in and they're not fumbling like they're, each ankle has the same ability to control and all that, then I'm adding something more complex and more specific to running, running itself. You know, I know Don is familiar with this and maybe you are too, Tanya. Dr. Jade DeShary came up with this mobile board. Is that considered a wobble board? Is that more running specific? Is that what we should be using to strengthen our big toe and all that sort of stuff? Yeah. Jade DeShry, he's fantastic. He lived in Bend. Back when he lives in Bend, I used to live in Bend. I really like his content. He was one of the first people to bring evidence-based practice for teaching running, treating runners, especially. So yeah, he's fantastic. So the Mobey Board is more,

...