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to you through PRX. Hey everybody it's Gene Chatsky and this week we are talking about ambition.

So I want to start by asking you some questions. What exactly is success? Is it climbing to the top of the ladder? Is it climbing to the top of your career while

also being married or also having children? Is it climbing to the midway point in your career and then saying screw it this is not what I wanted to do all along and pivoting to something that makes you truly happy?

I didn't write these questions full confession they come from this week's guests

Hana Shank and Elizabeth Wallace Liz back in 2016 they published a series of essays in the Atlantic called The Ambition Interviews, which focused

on women and ambition and the realities of work life balance and motherhood and what counts quote unquote as

ambition and success and their work went viral kudos to them for that and now two years later they have turned this series into a book

it's called the ambition decisions what women know about work family and the path to

building a life.

Hana and Liz, thank you so much for being here.

Thanks for happy for having us.

So congratulations on the book.

We walked into the studio and Liz was all excited because you were just excerpted again in the Atlantic.

So congratulations. Thank you so much for being here.

I want to go back to before the original essays. So back a couple of years, what was happening in your lives that made you want to look at the question of a woman's ambition specifically in the years after

college.

And Hana, let me start with you.

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