Welcome to The Lost Debate, a show for Politically Ecclectics. I'm Robbie Gupta. And today I talk to Stephen Wilson, who ran a series of charter school organizations in New York over the years and who had a very interesting story about his exit slash firing from one of those institutions. We start the podcast talking about that. But then we really get into this book he wrote called The Lost Decade, which is all about the history of education in this country

and particularly how we have gone astray. And if you're listening to this, you might be like,

okay, this is repeat subject. You've had a lot of pods on this. This one is way more pointed,

I would say, than any of these types of interviews and conversations we've had before,

in part because Stephen and I get right to a period of time around 2020 when the movement

lots this way, and we get like into the details. Who is at fault? What were the bad ideas? What

institutions crumbled? And so we dig deep there. And I think you'll learn a lot. I think a lot of you loved the University of Michigan DEI conversation that we had a couple months ago. This is, I think, in that variety, except that Stephen and I have a lot more personal experience there to share. So I think you're going to

enjoy this one. It is provocative. If nothing else, let's jump right in.

Stephen Wilson, welcome to the podcast. Great to be with you, Raleigh. I loved your book.

This book was honestly riveting.

And as I was reading it in this coffee shop here in Brooklyn and finishing out the last few chapters this morning, the hair on the back of my neck was standing up because so much of what you wrote about is personal to me.

You in some ways, I said this is Doug Lamov when when i interviewed him we talked about when i left i said

when i left in 2016 running schools i saw the writing on the walls and said i do not want to be part

of it like an internal insurrection from people within the so-called education reform movement

that don't share my values and as i read the the reckoning, I think it was called or something,

the chapter you have towards the end of your book, it was one organization after another,

including some I am very close with, undergoing around 2020, massive internal revolts that

undid a lot of the core principles of the work that we do. But before we get

to any of those stories, because I kind of want to go in reverse here, I want to hear your story

from you, because you open the book a little bit, and you choose to talk in the third person

for the book and make it about more than your experience. But I do think your experience is a starting point.

And so for the audience's sake, tell us about Ascend Schools,

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