Hello and welcome to Downstream, Navaram Media's interview series about politics, culture,

political culture and why Batman sucks, but there'll be more on that in just a minute.

Today's episode is part of our disability focus, so if you'd like this and you want to learn

more about the issues facing disabled people in politics, culture and society, head over to

Navaramedia.com, you'll find articles, podcasts, maybe even a few more videos and you can indulge to

your heart's content. I am very very pleased to be here with Amanda Ladouk, an author and disability

rights advocate based in Canada. She's a novelist as well as a writer of nonfiction and today we'll

primarily be talking about her 2020 book, disfigured. Oh my god, is this upside down? No, it's

right way up on fairy tales, disability and making space and it's a really incisive, really

incredible read. Amanda, thank you so much for joining us today. Thank you so much for having

me Ash, it's a real pleasure to be here. I just thought maybe I'd talk a little bit about

where this show came from for me because it started with one of my favorite topics of conversation,

which is Batman Slander, because I can't stand Batman, I hate Batman, it's the worst superhero.

Number one, he's a billionaire who could fix all of Gotham social problems, but instead,

chooses to deal with his own personal issues by beating up street level criminals.

Also, every time he gets a suit redesigned by Lucius Fox, he has to ask for the stupid little

ears to go on top of the mask. So I just sort of think like who is this man, like held captive by

his own vanity. But I was really when I was thinking about the Christopher Nolan films,

I realised that disability and disfigurement feature prominently as markers of villainy,

of otherness, of deviance. So you've got the Joker famously played by Heath Ledger and his facial

scars. You've got the virtuous prosecutor Harvey Dent becoming the unhinged revenger two face

after half of his face burns off, or even, you know, the human like Bulldozer Bane,

...