Hi everyone, welcome to this ACFM microdose, which will probably be more than a microdose,

in which I Jeremy Gilbert and my friend and comrade Keir Milben will be interviewing our friend Rodrigo Nunes.

And we're doing this as a microdose, a supplemental episode of ACFM,

supplementing our big episode, episodes really already on the topic of revolution.

And so we're interviewing Rodrigo because he published this year a book called Need a Vertical

Nor Horizontal, a theory of political organisation, published by Virso, which touches on a huge

number of issues, which are really central to our themes and concerns and has a whole chapter

on the indeed, on the question of revolution. So we're going to chat about a number of the themes

and issues raised in the book. And first off, we're going to talk about this core concept of

revolution, this question of what it means to think about radical politics in an era when,

as we said in the main episode, we appear to require nothing short of revolutionary

transformation and yet the political conditions for revolution just don't seem to obtain in

almost any country in the world. And say, Rodrigo, maybe you could talk to us a bit about,

A, why did you write, why is there a whole chapter of the book called Revolutioning Crisis?

And what is your ultimate feeling, your conclusion about the concept of revolution and

revolutionary transformation? There were two major reasons. Well, both of them were connected

to the, the broader project of the book, which was to function as an intervention in debates in

which I felt that that a certain theoretical clarity or consistency was lacking in a very

specific way, like people, and that's probably that's certainly partially to do with what I call

the crisis of the idea of revolution in the book. We've been lacking a general theory of what

we're doing for a long time. We as in the left and as a consequence, we sort of

pick and mix stuff from different traditions and different contexts and we apply those things in

...