Artificial intelligence is the backbone of some of the biggest companies in the world right now.

Multi-trillion dollar companies can talk about nothing else but AI. And of course, whenever

it's discussed in the media by politicians and civil society, it's

compared invariably to the steam engine.

It is going to be the backbone for a new machine age.

Some people are really optimistic about the possibilities it will bring.

They are the boosters, the techno-optimists, the techno-utopians. Others are

doomers. They're down on AI. AGI, artificial, general intelligence is never going to happen.

And if it does, well, it's going to look like the Matrix, or maybe even, the Terminator and Skynet. We don't want that, do we?

Today's guest, however, is not speculating about or maybe even The Terminator and Skynet. We don't want that, do we?

Today's guest, however, is not speculating about the future. Instead, they're very much immersed in the present and indeed the recent past of the artificial intelligence industry.

Karen Howe went to MIT. She studied mechanical engineering. She knows the STEM game inside out.

But she made a choice to go into journalism and media to talk about these issues with a fluency and a

knowledge that very few people have. Rather than speculate, what Karen has done with this book is talk to people in the field.

300 interviews with 260 people in the industry.

150 interviews with 90 employees of OpenAI both past and present.

She has access to emails, company Slack channels, the works.

This is the inside account of OpenAI and the perils of artificial intelligence, big tech and big money coming after, well, pretty

much everything. It's an amazing story told incredibly well. I hope you enjoy this interview.

Karen Howe, welcome to downstream. Thank you so much for having me, Aaron.

It's a real pleasure to have you on, right? We say that to everybody, every guest,

but I have to say, and this has had Ray reviews, even though I've lost the dust jacket, Empire of AI,

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