This is an ABC podcast.

I wanted to start by asking if you have a particularly strong memory of feeling guilt for the first time or sometime in childhood that you'd be happy to share.

Oh, do I remember feeling guilty? Oh, all the time. I think more shame than guilt,

maybe. I remember like around age four, my mother reading me these books about saints, women's

saints. And they were beautiful, illustrated books about saints for small children.

And I remember thinking at age four or five, you know, I'm never going to be a saint.

I already knew that I had sinned.

And it was already all over at the age of four. I'm Sana Khadar.

And we've all done something we felt guilty, maybe even shameful about, at some point or another.

I think my first experience of guilt that I can remember

would be from when I was about three or four years old.

When I was about five years old.

My sister and I had just been watching a movie.

I was in David Jones at Christmas time with my mom.

I snuck off to the kitchen and got a pair of scissors.

And I remember seeing this shiny blue ribbon. Cripped up behind her and cut off a little bit of

her hair. And I grabbed it without anyone seeing. I don't really know why I did it, but I remember

feeling so, so horrible afterwards. I remember feeling so much guilt and so much fear that I returned and put it back.

I don't think anyone would have actually noticed or cared about the rhythm, but the guilt was real.

Obviously, as we get older, the subject of our guilt or shame can get a bit heavier.

Either way, these are never pleasant emotions. But can they ever lead to

positive change? And is there even a difference between shame and guilt? I wasn't even sure,

...