What up guys, this is Lisa Bilyu, your homie, and you're listening to this episode of Women of Impact

that is so beautifully honest, I just can't wait for you to hear it. Now, the one other things that breaks my heart the most is when people dismiss what they can achieve, what they can do in life because they tell themselves, I'm too old. Or you just feel like you're so lost and life is so hopeless that you don't know where to go, Or maybe a full of regret and guilt and shame around choices that you've made.

But I'm here to tell you with today's guest that we're going to show you that that does not. I repeat, that does not dictate your future and the person that you can become. And so myself and today's honored guest, my girl, the show-stopping Gami Norris is here to help you realize that you can be whoever you want to be. Now she's the badass mom of Jada Pinkasmith or she's also the host of Red Table Talk and has been incredibly open and transparent about her past struggles, her teenage pregnancy, her addiction and her abuse and how she's evolved into the woman she is today. Now guys, I don't know if you know this, but Gami is 70 years old. I mean, damn, the woman looks 50, but forget about that for a second. Her mindset at the age of 50 is so damn strong. She's been absolutely clean off drugs and alcohol for over 30 years and is finally sharing her insights and her struggles of the journey she's been on and how she was able to actually make a change in her life for the better and for finally for good. Because I don't care how old you are or how young you are, what life do you want and how do you get there? Well, my girl Gami is here to help us navigate just that. Now she talks about how she was actually able to take back control of her life, peace by peace by peace, as she struggled through addiction and abuse and she describes how you can too, even if you've never been through addiction abuse guys. Her tactics of how she was able to change't be applied to anybody in any situation

with something that you're trying to stop doing. Now, she also talks about why it's so important to identify the lies, that yep, the lies that you're telling yourself that are leaving the blinders on. And you wanna know why? You maybe can't change your life, guys. And I say there is other compassion. It's because you've got the blinders on. I get it. Again, if those blinds make you feel better or proud yourself.

But let me tell you, nothing's going to make you feel worse about yourself. The new blinking? 10 years go by and you don't have the life that you want. So she just stives in and explains how to find the actually forgive yourself for all the mistakes that you've made in the past and how to let go of the shame so that you can actually use your past experiences to fuel your growth. She then talks about why it's so freaking important to not let the idea that you can't actually stop you from ever trying. And she then talks about how to keep herself from spiraling into regret so that you can let go and actually change once and for. The truth is you're going gonna hear me say this over and over and over and over again. Anyone can change, but you actually have to make different choices. You have to change your habits. You have to surround yourself with positive energy and do all the internal work to let go of the shame and guilt on regret that you have and commit and actually commit to showing up every day to be better right now. Now trust me that is not easy and that's exactly why I do this podcast. It isn't easy and it's going to take you time and time and time again for you to listen to these amazing guests talk about how they were able to do it. So that finally you can start taking action, changing your habits, making different decisions, and then be able to have a different life. The one that you have always wanted. So guys, that's what I show up every day. That's why you're here listening to Women of Empower. So share this. Share this episode with someone in your life that is struggling with that. We cannot make a difference if we're not willing to act differently. So share this episode. And now let's dive in to my girl, Gammy Norris, I'm Lisa Bilyu. Welcome to Women of Impact. When you feel pregnant as a teenager, your mom gave you three ultimatums. Marry them? Have an abortion or give the baby up for adoption. And so the messaging to that young Gammy was that she wasn't capable enough or strong enough to be an independent woman. So how on earth have you broken free of that conditioning, judgment and expectations so you could live a life based on your terms and find and marry the man of your dreams in your sixties? You're 17 and not married. That was a big deal back then. And so the message to me was that what other people think is more important than how you feel. More important than you. That judgment and those expectations have affected me throughout my life and kind of like added layers of insecurity and unworthiness, you know, to who I was. All of that burden and all of that self-doubt is what led me into addiction. Right? So, you know, I spent all those years probably started using like at the age of 15. You know, you start with cigarettes and then you start with marijuana and then I found heroin and it was like, ah, that's it. That's the feeling that I want, that's the, you know, and I lived in that for a really, really long time. And I have to admit that I had no idea, no idea of the responsibility. I think that's really what her intent was, but what it came out as what will people think, what will people think of us? You're not married. You know, back in the day for a family like ours, we were considered middle class, her place in our community was important to her, to her and my father. So, I mean, my mother was the social worker, my father was a doctor, you know, come on now. And so was it that way of the reality, plus the expectations of the family, plus the fact that you end up in this marriage that maybe you didn't want led you to then seeking external sources to numb yourself? Absolutely. My really, really deep and heavy addiction, like I'm using drugs all this time, but the really, really deep addiction didn't start until really when my mother passed. So Jada would have been about 12 or 13 years old because once my mother passed, I didn't have anybody to answer to, kinda. You know what I mean? Like I still was hiding that from my mother. So I was still, I was a functioning addict. I went to work every day. I graduated from nursing school, top of my class, Magna Cum Laude. Oh, oh, I was using drugs. I got married twice, you know? But that's also when my mother passed, my second marriage ended and things just started going downhill. So talk to me about that if you don't mind because anybody listening right now that feels stuck, that feels like they've got nowhere to go, that feels like maybe their life is written for them. And then you end up down that spiral because once it's like you kind of start, it really is hard to get out. It is extremely hard to get out of. And at the end of the day, I just went through it until you get sick and tired of being sick and tired of yourself. Like everybody has to find their own bottom. Once I found this 12-step program, because that's how I got clean, that's how everybody gets clean, but that's how I got clean. I followed my sister into the rooms, but even still, it took me six years of like a revolving door going in and out, in and out of recovery, not even recovery, just in and out of the rooms, staying clean for a little while and then relapsing. You know? Until you just hit right bottom, you hit right bottom and you have to, and actually when I got clean, for real, it wasn't really for me. It was for Jada. And also I had found a relationship again, that was my third husband. And I didn't want to lose that relationship and I felt like I had to be clean in order to stay in it. So I did it for a man and for Jada, right? Until once you're in there, then you realize you gotta do it for. It's got to be for you. It can't be for somebody else. And that's something that nobody can figure out for you. Because everybody's journey is different. Everybody's journey is different. You have a quote that says, I didn't think I was anything without a man. Yes, I did not. I didn't You know, and I think a lot of women You know feel that way still and definitely back then It was about husband family not focused on career That that wasn't that important for women, you know, back when I was coming up. Was it that mindset that made you believe or I've done if it's made you believe, but allowed you to believe that an abusive relationship was okay to be in? You know, I don't know where the hell that came from because that was not my experience with my parents. I don't know where that came from. Because I heard an interview with you where you said, when he hit me, I thought that that meant he loved me. Because if he didn't care, he just would have walked away. Right. Right. And I actually tried to to convince one of my girlfriends of the same thing. Yeah. And she was like, what? That's ridiculous. So I don't know where, I don't know where that came from for me. I really don't. If you don't mind taking me back to that time. So you've got a young child. He's very abusive to you. I mean, he pushed you over about can you? Yeah, but you know what? Here I go, make an excuse. I don't want to make him out to be this devil of a man because he actually wasn't. He was an addict. And to be honest, he warned me about that. He knew it. He knew he was because you have to remember two back then. We didn't have the information about addiction that we have now, right? But he knew. He knew he was an addict and that there was really no hope for our relationship. He actually was happy about the pregnancy and I was, but he knew that he could not be a father. He knew that, but I didn't want to terminate the pregnancy. You know? So he kind of did that for me. And when he pushed me over the balcony, he was drunk, and we were, you know it was an accident. He was drunk. We were all out. I remember where we were. We were over my girlfriend's house. And it was a porch balcony. Do you mind if I ask you? Because I've had you tell the story and every time you

like here I go again making excuses yeah how you because he also had punched me in the eye I had a black eye one time he was drunk he was he was he was a mean drunk and he tried to warn me that he was not the person for me,

the person that I wanted him to be,

and that I should leave him alone.

And he, I think, had a lot of demons of his own demons.

I know that he did.

And my mother saw it the first time she ever met him. She saw it in his eyes. And she did not support the relationship from day one. But again, I think it was more about my own rebelliousness against my parents and what they wanted for me and their expectations for me. What everybody else thought. You know, I just, I just was rejecting all of it. So he held up the danger sign and you chose to ignore it and do think that that's part of it because you already knew it. He knew it and you still went into the relationship. Exactly. How did you then eventually realize that actually hang on, this abuse does not equal love? Probably the last time he, you know, we had a fight and he, the time that I had to run out of the house. That was, that was the last straw. I just, I wasn't going to live like that. And you ran out of the house because you thought your life was a risk? Yeah. We were in the house. And I think that we were actually, I'm trying to remember if we were separated at the time because my parents, well, our parents, actually his parents and my parents were kind of like supporting us. We had an apartment and, Rob was trying to work. I stayed home with Jada for the, for a year. And that was an agreement that my mother and I had. And I was at my mother's house and he came there. I like, can't even remember what the, what the argument was about, but he punched me in the stomach. He pushed me down on the bed and he punched me in the stomach. And Jada was in another room on the floor. I had placed her on the floor. And I said, oh my God, we left Jada in the den. So the bedroom was here and the den was across the hall, the den, my father's office. So he ran to get Jada, because I knew he wasn't gonna hurt Jada was like, ah, maybe six months old, you know, just old enough to like sit up, maybe 10. And so he ran over to the den to get her and I made a mad dash out of the house and down the steps and across the street. Like I just ran screaming and banging on the door and they came and opened door. Because I had never seen him at the level of anger that he had. And I was scared, because and I was home by myself. So the neighbors called the police and my parents actually came, they had been out for the afternoon and they kind of drove up to all of that. The police being there at their home and me and tears, holding J.D..D. and the neighbors. And it's just like a mess. We just were dysfunctional. You know, we were teenagers. And he was a teenage addict. You know, it was a disaster waiting to happen. And it happened. And so I just didn't, you know, you're young and you just don't see it that way. Had I been older and more experienced, more knowledgeable about abusive relationships, I probably would not have stayed, even through that. Like it would have been like, you hear people say, if they hit you once, that's enough. Once there's too many, I know that now. I just didn't know it then. I'd never seen that. I'd not like, that didn't happen in my family. So I just didn't understand abuse. So if you could go by and speak to that younger self of yours, what would you say to her? I would say, girl, please, he's not worth it. Why are you doing this? Why are you even doing this? To re-gve your mother? So you're going to hurt yourself rebelling against your mother because that's what you're doing. That's what this is all about. It's all about you rebelling against your mother. That's it. Figure that out. And he don't have nothing to do with it. Really? He's your tool. Wow. He's your tool. That really hit me. So thank you for sharing all of this by the way. I think that your experience, everything in hindsight is very powerful. for somebody listening right now that I don't want them to get to my age in my 40s, or you know, you and your 70s, to have to realize all of this sort of thing. And so thinking through what led you there, what had to transpire in order for you to be able to get out of that and then become the freaking badass that you are today. So do you mind taking me then through your addiction? So, you know, you're in this turbulent relationship, you're addicted to heroin, but you're very functional. Very functional. And but just for clarity, you're like 30, over 30 years sober now? Yes. That's amazing. 33 years. 33 years. Yeah. So then take me back. Did you ever think that this would be possible, that you'd be sitting here today, so we're being able to talk about that? Hell no. Once you find yourself so deep in addiction and once it becomes, because what happens is the drugs stop working, right? What the feeling that actually you looked forward to, it doesn't work for you anymore. It doesn't relieve your pain. It doesn't relieve the emptiness. And you realize that it's the cause. And so that right bottom, like I said, is different for everybody. And I tell this story all the time too. I remember Jada was away at college. And she called me. and I was very tearful and crying. I had broken up with my boyfriend at the time. Who, by the way, is now my fourth husband. We had broken up and I was, you know, just kind of distraught and tearful and feeling sorry for myself. And Jada was like, Mom, doesn't have anything to do with Rodney. It doesn't have anything to do with anybody else but you. And once you get yourself together, everything will, all the pieces will come together. And I heard her. I heard her. I heard what she was telling me. I had already been exposed to the rooms of the 12-step program. So I had already started that revolving door. I had been the treatment. And you know, you hear some people say that, they've been the treatment over and over and over again. That was not part of my story. I went to treatment one time and I heard them. I heard what they were telling me and I knew what I had to do. But I had to make the decision. I had to make the decision. But that message from Jada that night was very impactful. You know, and I think that that was kind of like the turning point for me. You know, because I knew she was right. Didn't have anything to do with Rodney or anybody else. Me thinking I needed a man. No, you don't need nobody, but you need to get your shit together. Get your life together and stop this madness. You know, it doesn't even work anymore. It's not even serving as purpose anymore. Do you think the difference there that you heard the message is the fact that you hit rock bottom? Because I can imagine up to that point. If anyone ever was going to pinpoint it, you would probably deny it, ignore it, pretend it wasn't a problem. But that moment where someone's giving you a piece of advice and it actually sticks, Is it the rock bottom that allowed that to stick? Yeah, but you have to get to, I mean, that moment with Rodney that break up, and then there was another time because it wasn't that exact moment either. I have to admit that it wasn't that exact moment, but it was a turning point. Because someone else came into my life after that. And the real rock bottom for me was I found myself in my basement by myself getting high. Couldn't find a vein, but injected it anyway, knowing that it wasn't any good, knowing that the drugs weren't any good. It wasn't even really heroin. I only was probably quinine or something. That was the rock bottom for me. And that probably was about another year or two after that conversation with Jada. Do you think it becomes, like the analogy that I was having my head with things like this, is those drops of water, they hit a stone, and eventually the stone changes its shape. So thinking about Jada says this, Rodney leaves you, you're in the basement,

and so all these accumulation of this dripping effect

became the thing that I made.

All the, all the, it's the process.

You know, it's the journey.

And, you know, when you're talking about addiction,

everybody's journey is different.

You have people that go to treatment and come out

and they get clean, right? That's it. You know, my sister got clean. She never even went in the treatment. She never even went in the treatment. She did, she went to therapy. And she found the 12-step program. And she never relapsed after that. But my journey was not that. I relapsed over and over and over again. And I can remember. I can remember it was a Saturday afternoon and it was a Saturday morning meeting that happened in a church and I stood up and I remember the meeting that day was small. It was very intimate. It wasn't a lot of people there. I remember who was chairing the meeting and everything and I stood up and got my 90 day key chain, 90 days. Yeah, so that's three months and it was like, wow, I am really honestly, honestly doing this. And it was like a light bulb went off in like a relief, like a weight off of my shoulders that day. And it was just different because I was surrendered. rendered. I had surrendered to the fact that I was an addict and I had to do it this way. I couldn't rewrite the 12 steps. I couldn't rewrite the traditions. I had to be, I had to let go and let God and let somebody else help me through this process. And that meant letting go means letting go of everything, turning your will over to the power of God, turning letting go the, your friends, like getting rid of the phone numbers, your old phone numbers and collecting new phone numbers, letting people help you, you know, you can't associate with people that are using, can't do that. You know, and before I always had them, like in the back of my mind, so if I changed my mind, I got it, I know who I can call. But if you, if you disconnect yourself from all of that, you know, and then I just started following directions. I started following directions. People always knew where I was. You know, I can remember being at work and calling my sponsor and saying, I don't, I'm not feeling good. I feel like I just want to use. I just want to use. And she was like, what are you doing right now? I said, well, I'm at work. And you're nice for people here. Yeah, yeah. I'm at work and, you know, she said, well, do what's in front of you to do right now. And then when five o'clock comes, meet me at such and such a place. I'll meet you there. You know what I mean? And it was that kind of thing. It was that kind of thing of really letting people know where I was, always staying connected with somebody like when things like that, when those feelings come about, talk to somebody, call somebody. That's what the program is about. You know, one added, helping another. And I started doing those things. And even today, what that did was kind of take away my spontaneity and it didn't give me an opportunity to sneak off because somebody always knew where I was. But they always knew where I was because I told them. I stayed connected with people. Whereas before I was always sneaking off. And, you know, I'm here, I'm there, I'm doing this, I'm, you know, I'm all right. You know what I mean? Just being sneaky about my life. And that's how I was able to keep using. Cause it's not really what I wanted. I didn't really wanna stop. In the back of my mind, I always thought that, oh, I can go back to just using on the weekends and that's shit, that's not a word. So really, you really changed your habits as well to make sure that you wouldn't have to change your life. You have to change everything about yourself and the change starts on the inside. You know, it's an inside out job. So let me change that because I think that's not correct. The change actually does start on the outside until it moves into the inside. Outside has to change. All the things how are you living? You know, like I used to come to the meetings like all dressed up and cute, you know. I had more male friends in the meetings and I did women because, you know, I'm just trying to be cute. I'm not trying to really be in there to do the work. Right? Once you try to get in there and then you connect with the other women, because they're gonna peep your shit. Yeah, they know who you are, because they've been that too. That's why you were hiding from them in the first place and you were gravitated towards the man. Exactly. Exactly. So then the longer that you're in there and the longer that you start relating, you stop identifying your way out. Because I did that for a long time too. Oh no, I can't go on this meeting because I'm a nurse. I can't let people see me in there. What? Girl, you are not that important. You trying to save save your life or save face? Mm-hmm. Which is more important. I love hot questions like that because it doesn't leave you anywhere to go. It's like you have to actually answer it. It's binary. Which one? Which one? Which one? Time I do want to be seen in a meeting. What? I really want to dive into the fact that you gave yourself over. This is so powerful because anyone listening right now, whether you've been addicted to drugs or not, the idea of being stuck, being in a place that doesn't serve you, being in a place where you look around like this isn't the life that I dreamt over wanted, and then making that change. That's what I think universally, almost every woman I've ever met has embraced or faced something like that. Expectations, judgment, and everything that you've been talking about. I love that you said it actually started outside first. Because I understand you saying I had to strip away the things that weren't allowing me to do the internal work. By changing your habits, by changing the people you're with, by changing the way you were showing up, then you should be honest. And people always say, being honest with yourself. But what I realized was that I don't even think I really understood what honesty was if that makes any sense. But I think it was me being able to share as honestly as I could at the time so that the people there could then, you know, kind of explain to me what

was going on with me because they had been through it. So they could explain to me that that's not really what was going on. You know, I'm going to give you an example. Like you're I'm in the meeting and women are talking about how they were

tricking.

And I was like, oh, I never did that. Tricking meaning? Like, using sex and using their bodies in their addiction to get drugs, whether they They were standing on the corner or whatever. And I'm like, oh, I never did that. I never did that. And they were like, oh, really? You never did that. You never had sex with anybody to get drugs. You never had sex when you didn't really want to, which you really wanted was the drugs, but you had sex. That's trickin'. That's trickin'. But I never looked at it that way because he was my boyfriend. Did you, but your goal at the time was that you knew he had it. So was that kind of stuff that I didn't even realize. I'm being dishonest with myself. And I needed the experience of one addict to another. Explain it to me, what is going on in your own life because you don't even really know. You would label it as normal. Yeah, I just label it as like, you know, I'm having sex with my boyfriend. What are you talking about? No, that's not really what you were doing. How much did that teach you the power of the story you tell yourself? How we lied to ourselves? That's when it taught me how many years I was lying to myself about what was really going on in my life. And it's not purposeful. I'm not, sometimes I'm lying purposely and I know it. You know, but sometimes you just didn't even understand what was happening, you know? Cause your mind is all muddled. Your mind is all muddled. And dysfunctional. Cause you're about the getting and the using. That's it. That's really what your life has been about. And I don't even know how I survived that shit.

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