You're listening to the Allender Center podcast with Dr. Dan Allender.

Each week, we dive into topics that reflects something of what it means to foster hope and healing

in a world so in need of restoration.

These conversations grow out of the work we do with individuals and communities across the country, which you can learn more about at the Allender Center.org.

There are complexities, inevitably in being a leader.

I mean, anyone who's a leader knows that at some level you have chosen a path that's full of

madness. I believe at the depths of my being that people who are good leaders are reluctant leaders,

who in many ways don't have the ambition to lead, but end up finding themselves nonetheless

in the position in which they get cornered by God. Now, there is always an interplay of desire,

ambition, and reluctance.

And so what we're going to be doing over these next two episodes is I get the privilege of interviewing and talking with my boss, Kathy Lursell.

Hi, Kathy.

Hi.

Are you ready?

No.

I wonder why.

Are there just rich joy? Are you ready? No. I wonder why.

Are there just rich joys in the lovely labor of being a leader?

Absolutely.

And isn't it also a context in which in some ways you face being disemboweled most every day.

And so we're talking about leadership, but the reality is that you're a young woman,

at least compared to my age, and you're a woman. And so there are realities and we want to talk about leadership in a very broad,

...