The value of the object, as Klauswitz says, is extremely hot for Putin,

where as you look at the Ukrainian object, this is a matter of life and death, it's survival.

Klauswitz basically says if what you're doing militarily is not affecting their will to fight or their ability to fight,

you need to start questioning what you're doing.

The war goes on basically until someone refuses to pay anymore. They get to the point where they're

not going to pay any more in blood or pay any more in treasure. And he said at that point, peace breaks out.

Hey, welcome back to the Modern War Institute podcast, brought to you with the very generous

support of the West Point Class of 1974.

I'm John Amble, editorial director at MWI, and I'm joined on this episode by Dr. Donald Stoker.

He is a historian, a professor at the National Defense University's Eisenhower School, and

the author of a number of books,

including a biography of the Prussian military theorist Carl von Klauswitz.

Klauswitz's ideas are held in exceptionally high regard among U.S. military scholars,

but it can be a challenge to unpack them with precision and nuance and apply them to real world security challenges.

But Don joins me on this episode to do just that, specifically taking Klauswitz's ideas

about war and peace and using them to understand the war in Ukraine and how it might eventually

come to an end.

It was fascinating for me to hear his thoughts on the subject, and I think

listeners will also really enjoy hearing them. Before we get to the discussion, a couple notes.

First, I want to say thank you to the West Point Class of 1974 for their very generous support

to MWI. Second, be sure to subscribe to the MWI podcast on your favorite podcast app so you don't

miss an episode.

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