Chinese Whispers: spy planes and infiltrators

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4.4 • 785 Ratings

🗓️ 6 March 2023

⏱️ 47 minutes

🔗️ Recording | iTunes | RSS

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Summary

The Chinese Communist Party likes to blame its domestic political problems on foreign interference, and it has done so since the days of Chairman Mao.

But sometimes, does this paranoia, this narrative, have a point? Or at least during the depths of the Cold War, when the United States, via the CIA, was countering communism across the world through so-called ‘covert operations’.

Cindy Yu's guest today is Professor John Delury, a historian at the Yonsei University in Seoul, and author of a new book looking at the history of the CIA in China. It’s called Agents of Subversion – some of the incredible exploits detailed in there are nothing short of what you'd find in a spy thriller.

Pictured here is CIA agent John T. Downey, who was imprisoned by China for over two decades after an exfiltration mission over Manchuria failed. He was eventually released following Nixon's visit to China.

Further listening:
Bill Hayton on Liang Qichao and the other Chinese reformers whose followers became the so-called 'Third Force' discussed in this episode: https://www.spectator.co.uk/podcast/what-is-it-to-be-chinese/.
Professor Rana Mitter and Jessica Drun on the history of Taiwan and what happened after Chiang Kai-shek fled there: https://www.spectator.co.uk/podcast/why-does-china-care-about-taiwan/

Transcript

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0:00.0	The Spectator magazine combines incisive political analysis with books and arts reviews of unrivaled authority.
0:07.6	Subscribe today for just £12 and receive a 12-week subscription, in print and online, plus a £20 £20,000 emphasise £1,000 £1,000 £1,000 £1 realised realised recognised. Absolutely free. Go to spectator.com.uk forward slash voucher.
0:31.4	Hello and welcome to Chinese Whispers with me, Cindy Yu. Every episode, I'll be talking to
0:36.3	journalists, experts and long-time China
0:38.2	watches about the latest in Chinese politics, society and more. There'll be a smattering
0:43.4	of history to catch you up on the background knowledge and some context as well. How do the
0:47.8	Chinese see these issues? The Chinese Communist Party likes to blame its domestic political
0:54.0	problems on foreign interference,
0:56.0	and it has done so since the days of Chairman Mao.
0:59.0	But sometimes does this paranoia or this narrative have a point?
1:04.0	Or at least did it have a point during the depths of the Cold War, for example,
1:08.0	when the United States via the CIA was countering communism across the
1:11.8	world through so-called covert operations. My guest today is Professor John DeLurie, a historian
1:17.8	at the Yonza University in Seoul, an author of a new book looking at the history of the CIA in
1:23.6	China. It's called agents of subversion, and I'd highly recommend it because some of the
1:28.5	incredible exploits detailed in there are nothing short of a spy thriller. So I've got John on the
1:33.8	show today to talk about that history and what it tells us about US-China relations today.
1:39.0	John, welcome to Chinese Whispers. Thank you, Cindy. I'm a fan of your podcast and really, really happy to be on here
1:45.1	with you. I wonder to start with if we can briefly set the scene for the creation of the CIA in
1:50.5	1947, because I think this is something that I didn't properly appreciate just how much it was a
1:55.1	Cold War creation. Yeah, that's a great place to start because the United States in particular has an interesting
2:02.7	history of being really, I mean, the American public and even the U.S. government scorned
	...

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