From the Center for European Reform, this is the CERR podcast.

Hello and welcome to another episode of the CER podcast.

My name is Sophia Besh.

I'm a research fellow here at the Center for European Reform.

And today I'm joined by John Springford, the C CR's deputy director and Sam Lowe, who's a

research fellow here. So there has been a bit of a debate going on at the CR over the last

few months on the topic of the customs union. And I think both John and Sam at this point have

arrived at fairly similar conclusions, but I have learned a lot

from listening to them argue and debate these points. And so what I wanted to do today is to just

ask them to lay out the arguments, lay out what they've been fighting about for the last few months,

so that you at home can try and understand what the debate is on the customs union. We want to talk about both the last few months so that you at home can try and understand what the debate is on the

customs union. We want to talk about both the economic rationale and the political considerations

that go into the question whether the UK should negotiate a customs union with the EU. So, Sam,

I know you've done this many, many times. I've heard you do this a lot of times. So this is going to be a very polished pitch.

When we talk about the customs union, what are we talking about? And why would it be a good idea for the UK's economy?

I'm slightly worried you've oversold my ability. In its essence, a customs union is when two or more countries, alongside having a commitment to reduce tariffs

on the goods traded between them, usually to zero, not always. They also agree to levy

the same import tariffs on all imports from countries not party to the customs union. So essentially

you reduce tariffs, barriers between each other and you erect the same tariffs on all other goods coming in.

And the reason you do this is to remove the need for rules of origin checks on goods traded between those countries within a customs union.

And rules of origin checks, or the need to prove origin, is something that happens when you are in a free trade agreement with another country

and you are required to demonstrate that the product you are selling to the other country

...