From the Center for European Reform, this is the CERR podcast.

Hello and welcome to another CER podcast.

My name is Sophia Besh.

I'm a research fellow here at the Center for European Reform.

And today I'm in conversation with Sam Lowe, who is a research fellow at the CR, and Beth

Upenheim, who is the researcher here at the CR. What we're going to discuss today are the Brexit

negotiations, and we're going to try and answer the question that Brexit watchers have pondered

since the beginning of the talks, which is, will the unity of the 27 crack? So far the EU 27 have done really well and been remarkably

united during the Brexit divorce negotiations. But one perceived wisdom that has been present since

the very beginning is that once the negotiations over the future relationship start, this is when

the different political and economic interests of the EU 27

are going to come out and Britain will have an easier time trying to divide them. What we do here really

is speak uncomfortable truth, break with perceived wisdom. That's what Sam and Beth are going to do

today, I believe. And we're going to start with a question to you, Beth, which is about the Franco-German line.

So Germany and France have been pretty hardline during the Brexit negotiations and have set the tone for all of the 27.

What is the logic behind this hard stance?

So you're right.

The dominant EU line has been the Franco-German mantra of unity, integrity and indivisibility. And these are the

concepts that really underpin the European Council guidelines from last spring, which rule out

cherry-picking, that famous word, of the four freedoms, that is good, services, capital and people.

And both Macron and Merkel have been very vocal in defending the integrity of the single market.

I mean, the two countries view themselves as the custodians of the European project.

...