This is Paul Adamson and I'm in conversation with Jean-Cloopiris.

Jean-Cloop Perris was head of the EU Council Legal Service for over 22 years and had a leading role in drafting all of the treaties from Mastix to Lisbon.

Jean-Claude, I'd like to start with the very beginning and ask you,

why in earth do we have an Article 50, this withdrawal process at all in the Lisbon Treaty?

The EU existed for over 60 years without this provision for a member state to withdraw.

So why do we have it now?

Good morning, Paul. Nice to be here with you.

Yes, that was a, between lawyers, as always,

and some people thought that these treaties were signed for eternity,

for they had an unlimited duration, so it was unthinkable that one country could go out of this. But others said, and I was

among them, well, if a member state want to leave, they are not comfortable in a way, they will

live anyway. So after all this, and we had this occasion where it was a big treaty, a big

constitution, so-d-ant, between brackets, to be

settled. We had to be said to settle this thing, and there was a discussion about that.

And in the convention, which repaired the constitution, they drafted this article as it is now,

saying that we will save thousands and thousands of trials and trials. they drafted this article as it is now,

saying that we will save thousands and thousands

of trials and tribunals between individuals,

operative, economic operators, states,

and so on ongoing procedures.

So it's much better to have it.

The significance of it also on political side,

...