You, correct me if I'm wrong, for quite a while, it seemed like liberalism and Zionism, there are at least fundamental tensions that had been papered over or reconciled or transcended for parts of Israel's history, but in recent decades, particularly since the Oslo process began, became increasingly irreconcilable. And I think that has turned a lot of less this to become at least critical of Zionism,

talking before October 7th, which is not actually true of so-called liberal Zionists.

But that's a lot there.

You could start where you want, but maybe it would be useful to situate liberal Zionism on October 6,

2023.

Right.

Well, let me actually go back a little bit further and say that liberal Zionism is kind of my

own background.

I mean, I was raised in a very liberal, democratic Jewish community reform, Washington, D.C.

area.

And I'm old enough.

I'm 41 now that, you know, I clearly remember when Rabin was assassinated in 1995, and that was a huge

deal. I mean, I was from the kind of family that believed in Israel and believed there would be

peace. I went to the memorial service at Madison Square Garden, the Rabin Memorial Service.

Well, and to this I would add that the only time I've ever been to Israel, which was not through birthright, but it was through a birthright-esque program called Nifty,

the National Federation of Temple Youth. I went with a bunch of Jewish-American teams when I was

16 years old for a month, which is longer than most birthright trips. And that month happened

to be, I think it was the last. And that month happened to be,

I think it was the last week of that month,

was the Camp David talks that broke down,

that Clinton and Ehud Barak have always blamed on Yesor Arifat,

which is another way of saying that for most of the month I was there,

...