Hello, Wine Embers. My name is Jesse Meekam with another episode of the Wine Em Podcast

where we teach you four rules to help you stop from paycheck to paycheck. Get out of

debt and save more money. I kind of swallowed living right there. Help you stop living paycheck

to paycheck. Is it really living if you are paycheck to paycheck? I do not totally know.

I only have seven left. So we are just going to keep rolling with this. Matthew sent in

an email and says, first time emailer, I heard you a recent podcast with Ben in one

of Wayne regarding your notion that a person who uses credit cards, the non-float, Wine

Abway is only debt free for perhaps a day. You both seem to have dismissed the idea that

paying the statement balance in full each month is a bill. However, may I submit two thoughts?

First, someone who uses only a debit card still accrues debt balances in his or her life,

be it the electric bill, gas bill, dinner bill from a dining restaurant, etc. This is interesting

Matthew. I'm not reading him anymore because we kind of kicked that around early in my

experiment inside Wine Ab. People were like, well, wait a minute. You're accruing debt when

you turn on the lights. That kind of a thing. Absolutely. These all involve consumption before

payment. That's actually a nice way of putting it. You're pre-consuming. Second, isn't the

Wine Abway of using credit cards merely the creation of one accounts payable that is settled

each month in a similar way to the bills previously mentioned? Yes. Yeah. In a way, that's

exactly right. I don't get the feeling that the utility company is incentivized to have

you pay them more. Maybe they are. I mean, they're regulated. So that's kind of tough to say.

But then, then, 11 days later, you sent me another email. And I had not even responded

to the first one, Matthew, which I apologize for that. Just want to send a follow-up. As I

was pondering my response since then, you guys, I like Matthew. This is awesome. It hit me

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