I'm John Bachelor with Barry Strauss, Professor Barry Strauss at Cornell University, whose

new book is The War that Made the Roman Empire, Antony Cleopatra, and Octavian at Actium.

And here comes the mistake that Anthony could have avoided. It's called an

unforced error in sports, and it's a whopper. Professor, what is his decision of

his wife, Octavia? Anthony decides to divorce Octavia. Anthony decides to divorce Octavia.

And this is a propaganda bonanza for Octavian in Rome saying Anthony has betrayed his Roman wife and the mother of his two daughters

and instead he has turned her over for Cleopatra for this Egyptian queen. He's no longer a real Roman. He's no longer

representing Roman interests. And this is this is the banner that Octavian wants to go

to war war under. He's fighting for Rome.

Anthony is really no longer fighting for Rome. He's fighting for Egypt, for the Greek

speakers, for the East, and must be defeated to save Rome.

I'll go over this part of your book and I agree with Octavian.

I can't understand why he felt after all these years this was necessary unless Cleopatra insisted upon it.

What did he get out of divorcing Octavia?

He gets out of, when he gets out of divorcing Octavia, I think, is what the political

scientists call credible commitment.

He's saying to all the people who are fighting for him,

I'm not kidding.

Before this, when he's still married to Octavia,

then might think, this is a game.

Anthony's bargaining with Octavian, just as he's done in the past.

Yeah, he's got this fleet, he's built a new fleet,

...