Anne Applebaum on Ukraine, Europe, Trump, and the Danger of Authoritarianism

Conversations with Bill Kristol

News, Society & Culture, Government, Politics

4.7 • 1.7K Ratings

🗓️ 28 August 2025

⏱️ 53 minutes

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Summary

Much has happened since we were last joined by Pulitzer Prize-winning historian Anne Applebaum in February, including the Trump-Putin summit in Alaska and the Zelensky visit to the White House that provoked an alarmed and last-minute rush to join by European heads of state. In this Conversation, Applebaum shares her perspective on the situation on the ground in Ukraine and the response in European capitals to reduced US support for Ukraine on the battlefield. Drawing on her recent book Autocracy, Inc, out this week in paperback, Applebaum considers the growing authoritarian threat and dangers to liberal democracy on both sides of the Atlantic. As she states, “the farther you go down the road [to authoritarianism], the harder it becomes to turn back.”

Transcript

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0:00.0	Hi, I'm Bill Crystal.
0:15.7	Welcome to conversations.
0:17.5	Very pleased to be joined again by my friend and someone of highest regard for us,
0:21.7	an analyst of all things, what Russian, European, Soviet back in the old days, and an American,
0:28.0	and unfortunately of authoritarianism, which has become more and more of an important thing
0:32.3	to be a student and analyst of, and Applebaum.
0:35.9	I think our fifth conversation, our most recent one was six months ago.
0:39.3	I just looked at back at the transcript.
0:40.9	It really stands up very well, I would say, and, but throughout, you've been, you've been
0:45.0	more hopeful that Ukraine could hold its own against Russia than I think conventional
0:50.0	wisdom had it, and I think that's been correct.
0:52.1	You've been more convinced that Europe might really
0:55.7	step up a little more than most people here thought, at least in the U.S. I think that was right.
0:59.8	And you've also been very worried about authoritarianism here in the U.S.
1:04.1	And that's certainly, unfortunately, coming very much a concern that is what was well, well founded. So anyway, thank you for joining
1:14.7	us today. We'll talk about all those topics and update people leave if we're not entirely,
1:19.1	can't entirely cheer them up. Well, thanks for having me. Always pleasure to talk to you,
1:24.5	whether in real life or by a zoo.
1:32.0	No, I hate both are good. Okay, so you've been to Ukraine several times. Obviously, you've know it very, very well. I've been to it before. Obviously, the war, then, since the war,
1:36.5	you're right there. They're setting a fair amount of time in Poland, right across the border.
1:41.0	So what's your sense of the actual situation on the ground in the war, Ukraine?
1:46.5	So first of all, yeah, I'm in Poland now. I'm in Western Poland, though, so not exactly near the
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