Welcome to Our Hen House. This is Jasmine Singer.

This is Marianne Sullivan.

And this week, Marianne will be speaking with Jim Mason, author, attorney, and animal rights trailblazer.

While Jim is the author or co-author of several books

and numerous contributions to collections and journals, their conversation will be focusing on a true

classic of the movement. I'm talking about an unnatural order, the roots of our destruction of nature.

This was an exciting interview for you.

I loved this interview. I read this book. There's a new edition. It's not the edition I read, but I read it back in the 90s when he first wrote the first edition. It really affected me deeply.

I have a lot of the thoughts I have about animals are still rooted in that book.

And, you know, getting the chance these many years later to really dive deep into some of

his thoughts. I love the way he thinks. I mean, it's a really kind of a history of the world,

I mean, in a in a microcosm, but these are the animals. And he so compellingly explains why animals are so completely central to our psyches,

to our development as a species, to who we are on this planet.

They're not just here with us.

I mean, our psyches are intertwined with

animals. And the animal question is the question. I was so refreshing to renew that. When you get

like so distracted by tiny improvements in the situation and and not big changes in the way people think,

you know, fighting for crumbs.

And then just looking at the big picture, it was so refreshing.

He's just a delightful guy.

Yeah, I mean, I was like, haven't we had him on?

And you said that he actually wrote an article for us many years back when we were

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