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So download 11 Reader for free on your favorite app store today. Hello and welcome to episode four of the David Frum show. I'm David Frum, a staff writer at the Atlantic.

Thank you for all who watched and listened the first three episodes. All of us at the Atlantic and at the David From show are so gratified by the extraordinary response to our first three episodes.

And we hope to continue to meet your expectations in this and future episodes.

My guest today is Alan Bernstein, director of global public health at Oxford University.

Alan Bernstein there coordinates all the health and medical research across the vast domain

of Oxford University and tries to ensure that scientists talk to each other and talk to the

public in ways that benefit the safety of the whole planet.

Before that, Alan served as the founder and president of the Canadian Institutes for Health

Research,

a coordinating body for health research across all of Canada, much like the Centers for Disease Control in the United States. And before that, he rose to fame and eminence as one of the

world's leading researchers in cancer and virology. So I'm very glad to be joined today by

Alan Bernstein. And first, some preliminary remarks on the subjects we'll be talking about in today's discussion.

As I record this episode in late April 2025, the United States is gripped by an outbreak of measles.

More than 800 cases have been diagnosed in 24 states. Three people are dead. Two of them

unvaccinated school-age children, one of them an unvaccinated adult. We are only about one-third

of the way through the year 2025, and yet the United States has suffered nearly triple the number of cases

of measles in 2025 as it did in all of 2024. The measles is caused, of course,

by a pathogen, but it is enabled by human ignorance and human neglect. Rising numbers of children

are going unvaccinated. About a third of American children fail to get the full suite of vaccines

...