You were listening to the War on the Rocks podcast on strategy, defense, and foreign affairs.

I'm Doyle Hodges, executive editor of Texas National Security Review.

In academia, when we talk about rational choice, we usually talk about people who have consistent

ordered preferences for what they would like to occur.

In today's podcast, we're going to talk to people who have consistent preferences about order.

Mirror Rapp Hooper and Rebecca Listner have written the book An Open World, how America Can

Win the Contest for 21st Century Order.

And Stephen Wirthheim has written the book Tomorrow the World,

the Birth of U.S. Global Supremacy.

Both of these outline different, though not necessarily exclusively different, visions, of a potential world order.

Stephen, Rebecca, Mira, it's a pleasure to have you on the podcast today.

Ask you to each introduce yourself briefly.

Perhaps we could start with you, Rebecca.

Great, well, thank you so much for having us Doyle.

It is a great delight and honor to be on this podcast with you and Mira and Stephen.

My name is Rebecca Listener.

I am an assistant professor at the U.S. Naval War College and a non-resident scholar at Georgetown University Center for Security Studies.

I am of course speaking only in my personal capacity and not in any

institutionally representative way in our discussion here today.

And we'll mix it up Stephen.

All right. I am currently Deputy Director of Research and Policy at the Quincy Institute for Responsible State Craft, which is a think tank that I co-founded along with four colleagues and launched about a year ago and to give you a flavor of what it does it has in its mission opposition to endless war in U.S. foreign policy. I'm also a research scholar at the Saltzman Institute of

War and Peace Studies at Columbia University where I did my PhD in history.

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