The ignorance of the lawyer at that point that a computer could actually be the basis of a major criminal prosecution.

Specialty fetish chatrooms were all types of sexual discussions.

I would want to see whether the person had a documented sexual interest in children.

Hello and welcome to the best case worst case. This is Jim Clemente, retired FBI profiler, former New York City prosecutor and writer producer on CBS's Criminal Minds.

And with me today in the studio is Hi everybody. It's francey hakes, former state and federal prosecutor. How are you Jim doing very well, francey? How about yourself doing great back in the studio again?

I love it when we're together in the studio. Yeah, well today we have another great guest. I'm Ron Gainer. I'm a criminal defense attorney located in Miami, Florida, a former prosecutor also in Miami.

Well, and Ron, we're very excited to have you because you have the distinction of being only the second criminal defense attorney we've ever had on the podcast, right Jim?

That's right. And the first one being Jody Areos is defense attorney.

That's right. And I have to say ahead of time, Ron, just fair warning. We did get some social media. Let's call them firm reviews from people who didn't appreciate my challenge to Kirk Nermy.

I challenged his assertions a few times he was talking about a rape case and I took umbridge at a few of his comments.

So I don't know if you and I will get into it, Ron, but somehow I think you can handle it. Well, I'll give it my best. Awesome. Well, thanks for coming on, Ron. And we'd like to have you tell our audience first.

What's your career has been like? He said, you're a prosecutor and now your defense attorney. What do you do? Well, yeah, I started out as a prosecutor in the mid 80s in Miami when the the wildness of Miami and Miami vice were rampant.

And then after doing that for a while, I became a criminal defense attorney and eventually just started specializing in white collar cases and cases involving the computer and cyber cases.

And that led me to my current career now, which is those cases and essentially insider trading and white collar cases too.

Got it. Well, I don't know if you're aware of my history in this particular area, but I actually worked in the FBI on a couple of white collar squads and one of which I was actually undercover as a broker on the commodities exchange for three years on the floor selling crude oil futures during the first Gulf War was quite insane.

Interesting work. Yeah, well, and I have to say I'm feeling a little outnumbered because I will freely admit that I do not think I am smart enough for white collar cases.

I never handled them. I called them bankers box cases when I was a prosecutor. I never handled them. Never wanted to. They scared me and I'm so glad I never had to deal with them.

Well, it's okay, Francie. I'm sure that you would have been fine at them if you liked them. So today, Ron, we'd like to ask you where in your career were you when this case that you're about to tell us about came up.

Well, the case that we're going to discuss it was a cyber related case that came into my practice in 2014. So that would have been about 28 years into my practice.

So I'm pretty confident you knew what you're doing and this case came into you. What exactly were you doing on the date and time that this case came to you?

Well, I was working other matters, but I do remember when this case in particular came to me because it was just so unusual. It was so different from any other case that I had ever represented anyone in my practice.

That sounds interesting already. Yeah. So you got a case that came in and you were basically juggling probably a bunch of cases. I have no.

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