449. How Hostage Negotiation Can Help You Win More Cases with Chris Voss [Encore Edition]

The Game Changing Attorney Podcast with Michael Mogill

Michael Mogill

Marketing, Entrepreneurship, Business, Management

5.0 • 539 Ratings

🗓️ 31 March 2026

⏱️ 53 minutes

🔗️ Recording | iTunes | RSS

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Summary

Most negotiators spend years perfecting their argument. Chris Voss spent his career learning how to make the other side feel heard. In this encore episode of The Game Changing Attorney Podcast, Michael Mogill sits down with Chris Voss, former FBI lead international kidnapping negotiator, CEO of The Black Swan Group, and bestselling author of Never Split the Difference. With decades of high-stakes experience negotiating with criminals, terrorists, and executives alike, Chris challenges what most attorneys think they know about winning and explains why the collaborative negotiator almost always beats the combative one. Here's what you'll learn: Why "win-win" is one of the clearest signals that someone is about to take advantage of you Why pushing back only when it's justified builds more credibility than fighting every point Why negotiation is a perishable skill and what small-stakes daily practice actually looks like for someone who does this at the highest level Getting better at negotiation doesn't start with your next big case. It starts with the next conversation you have. ---- Show Notes: 2:32 — Since his first appearance on the podcast, Chris has been busy: a documentary, a book on empathy, and a bourbon brand built around dealmaking. 5:11 — Michael asks Chris to draw the line between how negotiation is portrayed on TV versus what effective negotiation actually looks like in practice, particularly for attorneys. 5:32 — Chris tells the story of a lawyer who trained under him as an FBI intern, became a practicing attorney, and out-earned every associate at his firm by refusing to be combative. 10:06 — Chris explains why a combative approach neurochemically triggers defensiveness in the other party, lengthening deals and eroding trust over time. 23:18 — Chris defines tactical empathy and cognitive empathy, explains why sociopaths are paradoxically the best at reading others, and describes how neuroscience backs the collaborative approach. 32:13 — Michael and Chris discuss negotiating in a digital world, why most people communicate too much at once, and why in-person interaction remains irreplaceable for building real relationships. 36:32 — Negotiation is a perishable skill. Chris shares how Tiger Woods approached practice and explains how he stays sharp by reading strangers in low-stakes everyday moments. 39:39 — Chris compares Patrick Mahomes and Kirk Cousins to illustrate the difference between ambition and perfectionism, and what that means for how people handle losing. 45:56 — Michael and Chris dig into what it actually takes to maintain a competitive edge over time ---- Links & Resources: The Psychology of Money by Morgan Housel Same as Ever by Morgan Housel Collaborative Fund Bill Gates Mark Zuckerberg Jeff Bezos Elon Musk Scott Galloway Chris Rock Warren Buffett ---- Do you love this podcast and want to see more game changing content? Subscribe to our YouTube channel. ---- Past guests on The Game Changing Attorney Podcast include David Goggins, John Morgan, Alex Hormozi, Randi McGinn, Kim Scott, Chris Voss, Kevin O’Leary, Laura Wasser, John Maxwell, Mark Lanier, Robert Greene, and many more. ---- If you enjoyed this episode, you may also like: 441. The Psychology Behind Difficult Conversations with Sheila Heen 297. Ken Feinberg — Behind the 9/11 Compensation Fund: Navigating Tragedy & Complex Mediation 5. Chris Voss — FBI Negotiation Tactics for Business and Life

Transcript

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0:00.0	The only thing about a first impression you got to worry about is that you make a bad first impression because then that becomes your last impression because the inside is so fed up with you, you don't want talking.
0:12.0	That's Chris Voss, former FBI hostage negotiator, CEO, the Black Swan Group, and the best-selling author of Never Split the Difference, negotiating as if your life depended on.
0:21.2	You can get away with a mediocre first impression. You can't get away with bad first impression.
0:26.9	And then immediately, whatever the last impression is, it colors the rest of the interaction.
0:43.7	I'm Michael Mogul, founder and CEO of Crisp, the nation's number one law from growth company.
0:48.7	I've built my business through practice, not theory. Crisp started which is $500 to my name and has grown to over eight figures in revenue over the last few years, earning a spot on
0:52.9	the Inc. 500 list of the fastest-growing
0:54.9	private companies in America. Our approach has been to take everything we've learned about generating
0:59.2	massive growth within our own organization and help the country's most ambitious and committed
1:03.4	law firm owners do the same for theirs. In each episode of this podcast, I sit down with
1:07.7	innovative market leaders from the legal industry and beyond to learn from those who thrive in the face of adversity, challenge the status quo, and define what it means to be a true game changer.
1:17.6	Today, we're revisiting one of our most popular episodes from the podcast where I sat down with Chris Voss to discuss why we should be skeptical of quote-unquote win-win opportunities, the transformative power of a collaborative mindset, and the dangers of complacency. Negotiation is a perishable skill. There's no way around. Simply doing it is not enough to stay good at it. Now, fortunately, the only time you really question whether or not you've got the best system is when you lose or you lose bad.
1:45.2	And, of course, that's a problem with winning.
1:46.9	You don't put that sort of introspective on the win.
1:49.3	When you should, but you don't.
1:52.5	That's coming up on the Game Changing Attorney podcast.
2:09.6	Before we begin today's episode, I want to remind you that we aren't beholden to any sponsors or run any ads on this podcast. This allows us to present all of our episodes raw and unfiltered.
2:13.6	I'm not going to push any made-to-order meal services on you or try to save you any money on your car insurance.
2:18.2	That being said, I have one small request. If you receive any value from this podcast, please give it a five-star review. Pay the fee so we can keep this podcast free. Chris, welcome back to the podcast, sir. Michael, it's my pleasure. I know we were talking about this just before we started recording, but the last time we were on the podcast, it was episode five of the podcast back in March of 2020.
2:39.7	It was roughly around the time, maybe a week before the pandemic hit. And it was obviously a very
2:45.5	tumultuous time. Now we've made it through all that. Fast forward several years. What would have
2:49.5	been some of the most significant developments or projects that you've been involved with since March of 2020, right, since the pandemic?
	...

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