Welcome to Spirit Jim. What does a man who has spent 50 years studying how animals and plants communicate

with each other eventually conclude about the nature of reality itself? That's not a trick question.

It's actually the most important experiment Fred Prevenza never planned to run. Fred is one of the

most cited researchers in the field of animal

behaviour, foraging ecology and rangeland science. His work has fundamentally reshaped how we

understand the relationship between animals, plants, landscapes and the feedback loops that connect

them all. He has spent half a century following the data, rigorously, methodically and scientifically.

But here's what the data eventually led him to, the edges of what science can measure.

And what he found beyond those edges didn't shake his faith in science, it deepened it. Because it turns out that the further

you push into complexity, into ecosystems, into consciousness, into the staggering interconnectedness

of all living things, the more the universe starts to look less like a machine and more like a dream.

Fred's paper, Cosmic Dreaming, is where 50 years

of field research meets the oldest questions humans have ever asked. Before we get started, we'd like to

say thank you for listening, as this podcast would not be possible without you, our subscribers and

followers. We'd also like to thank our sponsors, Organify,

bioptimizers, Paleo Valley, Wild Pastures, Peak Life and Correct. You'll hear their special

offers and discounts throughout this episode and your support of our sponsors means we can

keep bringing new episodes to you. And now over to Paul and Fred talking

about cosmic dreaming, life, death, nature, and what it all means. One of my favorite

and one of the wisest men I know, Fred Prevenza is back with us today, and I recently had the joy of

reading a paper. He hasn't published yet, but it is a mind-blowingly good paper, and I've encouraged

him not to publish it in an academic journal, publish it where lots of people can read it because

...