This is the Libertarian Podcast from the Hoover Institution, and today we're discussing two Supreme Court cases on free speech.

I'm your host Tom Church, and I get to talk today with the Libertarian himself Professor Richard Epstein.

Richard is the Peter and Kirsten Bedford senior fellow here at the Hoover Institution.

He's the Lawrence A Tish Professor of Law at NYU, and he's a senior lecturer at the University of Chicago.

And Richard, I feel like it's a little bit deja vu.

We're back here to discuss the results of two Colorado cases on free speech and for some reason it's always

Colorado on free speech I think we'll start with the 303 creative case it's another

case of a business owner with a Christian background who was unwilling to make in this case

marriage websites for same-sex couples. Now Richard a couple things to unpack here.

First of all I mean obviously I'd like you to take us through the case, but how does this not involve the masterpiece cake shop case we had from 2018? And then I'd also like to know, you know, take a take us through the

dissenting views and explain to me how conduct could be different than

speech or expression.

Why do you ask all the hard questions, which indeed these are.

The situation here was you were trying to make websites,

and unlike the masterpiece theater case or cake shop case.

What happened is she basically sought to get a clarification of her status prior to the time which she opened her website.

She was worried of having individual people come into the shop, complain that they were discriminated against,

making a reference to the commission, and then having to face the same problem that you had in the Kakeshope case, namely, being subject of all sorts of cross-examination or abuse. So in that particular case instead of having a clear

statement about what you may or may not do as a website designer with Christian

beliefs, what you did is you got a long discussion of whether or not the Colorado Commission

itself had behaved badly when it compared her to somebody who wanted to suppress speech

and was responsible for the Holocaust and things like that.

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