It's so terrifying to think how fragile trust really is that it only takes one gnarly comment and you can really do a lot of damage. When you have a collision of values guaranteed part of that visceral reaction is judgment. So within a meeting you said something it upset me. On the side I pulled you aside and said hey I, I just wanted to let you know what you said to me. It felt like you were invalidating me. And you turned around and in the most gracious way, you looked me in the eye and you said, because I've been with you for so long, it's really hard to see how the outside world is interpreting you. I totally, right, we use the same language. Yes, word and punishment manipulate because we know what we mean. Yeah, people are freaking the fuck out of it. Right, so language matters. And let's talk about that in our relationship where we've had to define the language that we use so that we understand each other in the way that is meant because the amount of times especially early especially early on in our relationship, you'd say one thing, I'd fly off the hand and be like, I wasn't what I meant. I'm like, yeah, but you use this word. And for me, this word means x, y, and z. And so we had to have that communication and understanding how to influence each other with the goal that we have in mind. to me about the words that we use and how we develop them. That's really interesting and we could literally derail on this and do a whole podcast just about this because I think people are way to caught up in what words are acceptable, what you can't say and my whole thing is, A, don't ever be so sensitive that you can't go, yeah, that word hits me funny or whatever,

but I want to stop and really understand this.

And I've never understood people that are interested in throwing up a roadblock and saying, I'm no longer gonna listen to you because you said, X, Y, Z. And I'm not interested in shutting people down. I'm not even interested in trying to prove something to them. I want to understand their position and see if there's something usable in that for me so that I can put it into my own world view.

And it was very easy for us to say, ah, first of all, we're in our 20s. We don't have- I wanna understand their position and see if there's something usable in that for me so that I can put it into my own worldview.

And it was very easy for us to say,

first of all, we're in our 20s.

We don't have a better word to manipulate, but I don't mean anything sinister by it. So let's just talk openly about what this is. It's like, we have a shared vision. We know what we're trying to accomplish in our life. The only word that I know is manipulate,

but hey, it has these really weird connotations,

and I promise I don't mean any of that.

So are you with me?

Do you understand where I'm going?

And then my thing is you earn trust with people over time. Like the number of times, and this is critical, if you're in a relationship, and you weaponize the knowledge that you have about that person against them. You know my every insecurity. I mean, the fucking really weird nuanced ones. In 19 years of being together,

you've never weaponized anything against me. Not something that I said in the past. You don't do the like bringing something up from the past, arguing you don't do any of that shit. And it would be so easy for you because your mind is like a steel trap at fucking terrifies me. And you remember all of that stuff. Like for me, I'm in a fucking forget it anyway.

So, but I mean, I know your insecurity is well enough,

I could certainly weaponize them against you,

but I don't want to.

Like I don't even have the desire to- You remember all of that stuff. Like for me, I'm in a fucking forget it anyway. So, but I mean, I know your insecurity is well enough,

I could certainly weaponize them against you,

but I don't want to.

Like I don't even have the desire or the inclination. It's like I could end this argument. I could drop her to a bag of sobbing rubble if I just said this one thing. I have no interest in doing that. It's like, it's so terrifying to think how fragile trust really is

that it only takes one gnarly comment

that was aimed to be cruel and you can really do a lot of damage. So we had earned all that trust. So by the time we're talking about stuff like that, it's like we've already been together for a while. There's a lot of trust built up. It's it's so important to to treat people kindly and to make them feel better about themselves when they're around you Yeah, and we're so used to each other and each other's language that even when I know you're trying to move me, let's say and I even say to you like I see what you're doing there, but you it's good strategy. It's working And so I'll give you the credit for the strategy because that's the one thing no one ever wants to feel like they're being secretly manipulated to their advance, the other person's advance. And that is super important. But now the thing that I've heard people say, and I don't remember who said this first, but manipulation is moving somebody to your advantage and influence is moving them to their advantage. Yeah. Great. I would say that we always moved each other to mutual advantage. It was always about the relationship. But even the language we use with each other, so we have, like for instance, a word that we say that which is important. I say the word important to you maybe two or three times a year, you say it back. That word for us, we have both come together to define and say this word means that no matter what's happening, you drop what you're doing. And so if you're with the president of the United States and I say, hey, I need you, it's important, it means that you're gonna drop it. But at the same time, I have to acknowledge that I kind of views that word. So those are kind of little tools and tips and tricks that we have done to communicate because we never want the boy that cried wolf, right, where it's like let's say I'm feeling down or I'm upset or something's happened. I don't ever want to keep calling on you and then when I really fricking need you and then you're busy and you're like I just don't have time. So we've really define that word and what that means to us. Another thing which I want to keep calling on you and then when I really freaking need you and then you're busy you're like I just don't have time so we've really defined that word and what that means to us. Another thing which I want to go deep into is defining roles. This has been massive for us because I feel like especially my role in the relationship has absolutely changed from the time we were going to get married to where we are now. So talk to me about what you feel, or like actually you were the one that came up with the praise to finding roles. Yeah, so I think that it's really been a fascinating journey going from I was going to work and be the provider and you were going to take care of the home and the kids and then no longer thinking about having kids and then going in and founding a company together. It's been really incredible. So in the beginning, I'll say that we had sort of a blunt force trauma view of it. So I had always thought of the alpha is good and powerful, and the beta is sort of weak and subservient. And we saw this documentary about wolves, and the beta was was bigger and stronger and was just a fucking beast. The alpha was the decision maker. So we had always talked, I was the alpha, you were the beta with that understanding of mine. You're not weak, you're not subservient at all. It's a partnership and we just have different roles. Now the role is better than the other. They're just different. And once you understand where someone

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