And that's a really incredible breakthrough moment for us as survivors.

When we actually feel like, hey, I can stand on my own two feet and I don't have to continue

to carry this shame and blame.

He said, trust me, you've got it.

You know, you're working around like a guy who expects to be gunned down at any second.

Hello, this is Jim Clemente Retired at the I profiler former New York City prosecutor

and writer producer of CVS's Criminal Minds.

And Francie is not with us today, but she will be back shortly to my great dismay.

But in the meantime, we have a return very special guest.

Stephen Mills author of Chosen, a memoir of stolen boyhood just published by Metropolitan

Books.

Awesome.

And so let's just jump right back into our discussion about Chosen, a memoir of stolen

boyhood.

And we were talking last week about what happened to you as a child.

You were victimized by the director of the camp that you were at.

And that story is very parallel to my.

I was victimized also as a teen by the director of the camp that I was at.

And so we met, you and I, and discovered there were a lot more connections.

Right.

Was it Murray Shane and who else Howard Friedkin?

Howard Friedkin, yes.

...