This is our unabridged interview with Norman Wirzba. How does the pursuit of independence distort our understanding of the good life? Before Norman Wirzba became a theologian, philosopher, and public intellectual, he was a farm boy in Southern Alberta, waking before sunrise to tend to the land and animals in his care, and he says that these early experiences working with the natural world taught him one essential lesson: life does not exist on our terms. Now a professor at Duke University working at the intersection of theology, philosophy, and agrarian studies, Norman argues that modern culture has trapped us in an illusion of self-reliance, when the key to a good life may simply require a deeper understanding of our place in what he calls the meshwork world.  Key Ideas: See Beyond Self-Sufficiency Norman challenges the modern myth of the isolated individual and invites us to recognize how deeply our lives depend upon others. Let Care Shape Your Life Farming taught Norman that flourishing begins with patience, attentiveness, and responsibility toward living things. Rediscover the Sacred Ordinary Everyday realities, from baking a pie to tending animals, become windows into gratitude, beauty, and shared human creativity. Resist the Culture of Control The pursuit of frictionless living and technological mastery can erode our capacity for compassion, humility, and wonder. Practice Rest Rest is not just about stopping work, but making time to cherish one another. ⁠⁠⁠Show Notes, Resources, and Transcript⁠ for abridged episode with Norman Wirzba The Wonder Project: Subscriber support makes more great content like I Gotta Ask with Annie F. Downs possible. The Wonder Project subscription on Prime Video is available in the U.S. for $8.99/month or $89.99/year after a 7-day free trial. Visit IGottaAsk.com to learn more! ⁠⁠⁠Join NSE+⁠⁠⁠ — our subscriber-only community — for ad-free listening, member-only bonus content, and early access to live show tickets. Your membership helps make No Small Endeavor sustainable. No Small Endeavor: An award-winning podcast that asks what it means to live a good life. Through conversations with leading thinkers across theology, philosophy, psychology, politics, and the social sciences, we explore human flourishing, meaning and purpose, faith and culture, science and religion, virtue and character, religion and spirituality, community, and the practices that help shape a good life grounded in truth, beauty, and goodness. Follow ⁠⁠⁠@nosmallendeavor⁠⁠⁠  Host Lee C. Camp: Lee has worked as a professor of theology & ethics for more than 25 years, teaching and writing on topics of faith & politics, inter-religious dialog, and human flourishing at the intersection of theology, moral philosophy, and social sciences. Follow ⁠⁠⁠@leeccamp ⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices