This is our unabridged interview with Nicholas Ma. What if the goal of disagreement isn’t to win, but to stay in relationship? After producing the smash hit documentary “Won’t You Be My Neighbor,” on the life of Fred Rogers, filmmaker Nicholas Ma had one lingering question: Where is the kindness and acceptance that Mr. Rogers embodied in today’s divided world? He found the answer in his latest documentary, Leap of Faith, which follows 12 pastors as they navigate the deep theological and cultural challenges that divide them. Nicholas discusses the process of making the film, the unlikely friendships that developed, and the quiet power of sitting with another person’s pain. Key Ideas: -Love Beyond Understanding True friendship grows when we learn to love the parts in others that we cannot understand. -Stay Present in Pain Transformation often begins not by fixing or debating, but by sitting with another’s pain and bearing witness together. -Choose Relationship Over Certainty Clinging to certainty can make our worldview fragile, while embracing the unknown creates space for growth, faith, and connection. -Endure the Process of Change Meaningful change requires time; like any deep human process, it cannot be rushed without losing its depth. -Practice Proximate Care Human flourishing begins locally—by loving our neighbors well and cultivating communities of care where we are. ⁠⁠Show Notes, Resources, and Transcript⁠ for abridged episode with Nicholas Ma⁠⁠ ⁠⁠Join NSE+⁠⁠ — our subscriber-only community — for ad-free listening, member-only bonus content, and early access to live show tickets. Your membership helps make No Small Endeavor sustainable. No Small Endeavor: An award-winning podcast that asks what it means to live a good life. Through conversations with leading thinkers across theology, philosophy, psychology, politics, and the social sciences, we explore human flourishing, meaning and purpose, faith and culture, science and religion, virtue and character, religion and spirituality, community, and the practices that help shape a good life grounded in truth, beauty, and goodness. Follow ⁠⁠@nosmallendeavor⁠⁠  Host Lee C. Camp: Lee has worked as a professor of theology & ethics for more than 25 years, teaching and writing on topics of faith & politics, inter-religious dialog, and human flourishing at the intersection of theology, moral philosophy, and social sciences. Follow ⁠⁠@leeccamp ⁠⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices