Welcome back. This is savvy psychologist. I'm Dr. Ellen Hendrickson and every week I'll help you

meet life's challenges with evidence-based research, a sympathetic ear, and zero judgment.

What do challenges as diverse as addiction, perfectionism, narcissism, and masochism have in common?

They are driven by a family of emotions known as shame.

Now, shame has a reputation of a psychological bad boy,

all toxic and destructive.

But maybe shame is less of a growling guard dog and more of a yappy chihuahua.

In other words, maybe Shame is something more common and everyday than we think.

And maybe it's even something that can be systematically overcome.

Which brings us to today's guest.

Dr. Joseph Burgo has been practicing psychotherapy for more than 35 years.

His articles and commentary have appeared in such publications as the New York Times, the

Atlantic, and the Washington Post.

He writes a blog titled Shame for Psychology Today and he's

the author of two previous books. Why do I do that and The Narcissist You Know? His newest book is out in just a couple weeks and is titled

Shame free yourself find joy and build true self-esteem. So Dr. Burgo, welcome to the show.

Thank you for having me.

Oh, thanks for being here.

So I was really interested to read your book and I, you know, usually think of shame as kind of a big entrenched

emotion that follows trauma or abuse like it's something deep and toxic and I

think of it as like as I think many of us do as like this all capital letters

shame but but you note that shame is actually quite common and part of everyday life so

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