Hey, welcome to Job with Julie. Want to let you know about this episode before you start listening?

I'm interviewing Gary Thomas, who you may be familiar with based on his book The Sacred Marriage,

but wanted to jump in real quick and let you know that we recorded this interview over the internet.

Gary wasn't coming into town when he lives in Texas, and we thought, we don't want to wait years for him to come into Colorado Springs.

So let's just chat with him over the wonders of the internet.

So hope you enjoy the interview and I'll talk to you when you're done listening.

Welcome to Jabba with Julie.

I am having coffee today with Gary Thomas and Gary, I don't think you've ever been on

job with Julie, which is an extreme tragedy.

I don't know how we've gone this long without interviewing you.

Well, I'm glad to be here now.

Yeah.

Well, you and I first connected with some work at Focus on the Family, and it just never

seemed to work out to get you

on the show, but most of our listeners will know you through your books. Probably your most well

known as Sacred Marriage, which was a huge paradigm shift for, I think, everybody that read it.

And the tagline for that book that I think everybody remembers is,

what if God made marriage to make you holy instead of to make you happy?

Did I get it right?

It's what if God designed marriage to make us holy more than to make it.

Oh, okay.

So we're allowed to be happy to?

...