That word vulnerability is kind of a cultural word that can be, you know, we speak of victims and the

but the reality of God being wounded for the loss of souls of Mary being wounded, you know, by

at the foot of the cross for the loss of souls. To me, this is an important thing spiritually.

This is the art of Catholic. How many podcasts have you ever listened to about the divine vulnerability of God, or even know what that means and why it's so important to understand? Have you ever pondered on the mystical suffering of Christ, or how there's a sense in which he allows himself to be wounded even still, and how that affects our practice of the faith, what about pure receptivity and prayer? And God's seeming concealment when we're seeking so hard to find Him. Like, why does He do that? Why does He seem to slip away when we most desire Him? Not only that, but what do we do with this deep infinite longing that we just can't seem to satisfy? What you're about to hear about these things in a whole lot more. This is one of those episodes full of spiritual treasure because my guest is none other than Father Donald Haggardy, who might consider to be one of the greatest spiritual authors of our day. His books are fantastic, and he always provides real meat on the spiritual bone as you're about to see in here. Now before we sink our teeth into this episode, allow me once again to invite you to join me in March 2026 on a life-changing pilgrimage to two of the most extraordinary Mary and Shrines in the world. Fatima, Emportgigal, and Lourdes in France as well as other holy sites in Spain. Fatima will stand on the very ground where our lady appeared to three shepherd children with her urgent call to prayer and conversion. So we'll go to their houses, we'll walk the paths they walk, pray the rosary in the great square and join in the breathtaking candlelight procession with pilgrims from around the world. Fatima is a game-changer. Lord's no less. We'll experience the peace of the grotto where Mary appeared to St. Bernadette and made the profound statement, I am the immaculate conception. We'll go to the healing baths and pray at the place where healing both body and soul has happened to so many different people. You know, in similar to Fatima, we'll take part in beautiful liturgies

that are just so unique and beautiful. And that's just the front and back ends of the trip, because along the way, we'll also visit other Portuguese shrines and holy sites in Lisbon and Sant'Arem. Then we're gonna head off to Spain where we'll go to Avala, Loyola, Salamanca, and more. Imagine seeing eucaristic miracles,

venerating the great Carmelites,

Saints, Trees of Avalon, John of the Cross, where they lived and worked, and celebrate Mass at the Castle Home of St. Ignatius of Loyola. What a powerful experience that is. Now, this is a pilgrimage that is just packed with grace. There's a link in the show notes to a short video I made to kind of show you more vividly

where we're going.

So you can look for that down below if you're on YouTube or in the description if you're on an audio app. You can also always find out about the pilgrimage of science of sainthood.com. Now if you want to talk to somebody about it, call my friends over at 206 tours and you You can reach them at 800-206-2 or 800-206-8687.

Just ask them for information on Matthew Leonard's pilgrimage to Fatima, Spain and Lors. I'd love to have you with me. But right now, I'd like you to join me in a conversation on some fascinating and powerful topics with the wonderful Father Donald Haggardy. Father Donald Haggardy, a priest from the Archdiocese of New York, serves as St. Patrick's Cathedral. He taught moral theology and worked as a spiritual director for seminaries for 20 years and has directed many retreats worldwide for Mother Teresa's missionaries of charity. He's authored a lot of books, mostly in spirituality, including the contemplative hunger, conversion, contemplative enigmas, all books that are sitting around a bookshelf, you know, on bookshelves in my house, and St. John of the Cross Master of Contemplation, which I, we did an interview on that book, and as I've said, I think that it is one of the best, if not the best, kind of commentary and and beautiful exposition of Saint John the Cross's work. I go back to that book repeatedly. His latest book is The Hour of Testing, Spiritual Depth and Insight in a Time of Ecclesial Uncertainty. this book is a little bit of a departure for you in some ways, because I'm used to you, Father, focusing solely upon spiritual topics and giants of the interior like like Shinjaro, John the Cross, Teresa of Avalon, others. But in the hour of testing, you kind of place your discussion in the context of the current age, and I'm looking forward to what it is you have to say. And so let me just first of all say welcome back to the art of math like it is a real pleasure to have you back on the show. Thank you Matthew. It's a pleasure to be here with you. Thank you. And we are chatting before we started recording that you would come to Stupidville not long ago and you were giving a talk at Franciscan University and my wife and daughter and I rearranged our schedules to get to to come see you speak and we were not disappointed. I think that you are one of the premier commentators on the spiritual life out there right now and I pray that people pay attention to what it is that you you say because you write so beautifully and you have the power father To illuminate the longings of our heart in a way that few others that I have encountered have the ability to do and I'm sure that a lot of that stems from your your prayer life and your priesthood and I'd kind of like to start with that. You like your priesthood.

Just so people have a little bit more understanding

of who you are.

How long have you been a priest?

What is it that drew you to this vocation?

I'm a priest 36 years now.

A priest of the Archdiocese of New York.

And number one, I had great parents.

A great family.

My parents were, I think this is true

of so many vocations, but my parents were great on the, were of that generation of World War II and actually met in a church where they were both going to Daily Mass and Manhattan. My father actually tells a, he used to like to tell the funny story that deceased now, but that he was getting distracted at his morning daily masses because of the young lady. We would sit a little bit on the other side of the church, and then at one point he decided to hold the door for her, he timed his exit from the church to hold the door for her, and she ignored him the first day. She ignored him the second day. And then on the third day, he spoke to her. And that was the beginning of their life long over 50 years, you know, marriage later. So I do love that because the idea of they were receiving communion together and God's plan was there. So I had a great parents. I also, I have to credit the missionaries of charity, Mother Teresa sisters, because I was working for a priest in Harlem at the in the Emmaus movement. And I got to know Mother Teresa sisters and then went to live and work in their shelter for the homeless and the Bronx, the South Bronx, which was quite rough in those days in the 1980s, still as rough. And that year, after a year, they was starting the missionary charity fathers. So I joined their group of the priests for, I was with them for a year and a half, changed over to the Archdiocese of New York. And the experience with the Mother Teresa sisters has always remained very close to me. And I've had lifelong close relations with them, including, as you mentioned, retreats worldwide. And so that's been a big effect on my priesthood. I taught in the seminary, but also I've stayed as best as I can close to the poor and stay close with these sisters.

So that has been a big impact on my spirituality

and the Mother Teresa spirituality.

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