Against the Rules with Michael Lewis

Perhaps you have someone in your life who’s prone to sports gambling. Michael Lewis has someone. So he comes up with a scheme to “inoculate” his 17-year-old son against the lure of placing bets online. All the while, Lewis tries to craft the perfect “master class” for would-be gamblers to understand the dangers of what they might be getting themselves into. Here's his reading list: The Logic of Sports Betting by Matt Davidow and Ed Miller Stephen Pinker’s Rationality: What It Is, Why It Seems Scarce, Why It Matters Weapons of Math Destruction by Cathy O’Neil  See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Transcribed - Published: 21 January 2025

Michael Lewis gets a glimpse of sports gambling's future by talking with writers in Great Britain and Australia, where the industry is even more entrenched. But the US has its own peculiar history of failing to regulate dangerously addictive new products, and blaming the users instead. Especially when powerful industry advocates are able to pay scientists to sow doubt and delay the day of reckoning. For further reading:  Lying for Money: How Legendary Frauds Reveal the Workings of our World by Dan Davies Crikey’s coverage on sports gambling in Australia: Punted Patrick Radden Keefe’s Empire of Pain: The Story of the Sackler Family and Purdue Pharma Merchants of Doubt by Naomi Oreskes and Erik Conway.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Transcribed - Published: 14 January 2025

Has betting based on inside intel on games gone down since sports gambling was legalized in the US? Not really, as Michael Lewis finds out. But what's gone up is misery for athletes. We hear from Atlanta Hawks forward Larry Nance, Jr. about the rage, threats and wheedling that pro athletes now endure. The NCAA, former Massachusetts governor Charlie Baker, is trying to protect student athletes on campus, while their friends all bet on them, often underaged. Overall, the “integrity landscape” for US sports looks more and more pot-holed by the day. For further reading: NCAA sports wagering surveySee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Transcribed - Published: 7 January 2025

We hear from Nate Silver and Maria Konnikova, poker sharps and co-hosts of the Pushkin show “Risky Business,” as they share the year’s most notable decisions in their first annual Riskies award show. What were the best, worst and wildest decisions of 2024, from politics to sports to business? Also: degen of the year, nit of the year, and the cognitive bias that best explains 2024.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Transcribed - Published: 28 December 2024

Just recently, Michael Lewis was a guest on the "Prof G" podcast with Scott Galloway. He talks about the rise of sports betting and why the consequences might be a "disaster" for US society. And the two discuss the subject of Lewis's latest book, "Going Infinite." See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Transcribed - Published: 24 December 2024

On a visit to Las Vegas, Michael Lewis meets three old-school sports bookies. Chris Andrews, Jimmy Vaccaro, and Vinny Magliulo book bets and set odds at the South Point Hotel Casino. They talk about how they got started in Vegas, the origins of the prop bet, and why it's bad for business to limit smart bets.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Transcribed - Published: 17 December 2024

Michael Lewis sits down with Billy Walters, one of the most famous sports bettors of all time. They talk about Walters' impoverished childhood in Kentucky, and his transformation from an auto dealer to a professional poker player in Las Vegas to a sobered-up millionaire who's been indicted five times. For further reading: Gambler: Secrets from a Life at Risk by Billy Walters.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Transcribed - Published: 10 December 2024

As a resident of California, Michael Lewis cannot place bets on any of the online sports books at the center of this season. They’re not allowed to operate in the state. But why? We hear from pastors, Native Americans and short-sellers about why a handful of states are still holding out, and why those efforts are most likely doomed. For further reading: Steve Ruddock’s gaming newsletter Straight to the Point Inside the $400 million fight to control California sports betting by Gus Garcia-Roberts, Washington Post.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Transcribed - Published: 3 December 2024

It's the season of giving: colorful paper and shiny bows, sure, and charitable giving, too. In this special episode, Jacob Goldstein, the host of What's Your Problem, gets smart about donating. Did you know that spending money on others makes you happier than spending money on yourself? Or that altruistic nerds have discovered four of the most impactful charities in the world (per dollar spent)? Have you ever wondered how poker players think about giving? Dr. Laurie Santos from The Happiness Lab, Elie Hassenfeld of GiveWell, and Nate Silver and Maria Konnikova from Risky Business talk about how to maximize your giving – and why you’ll be happy you did. Link to donate: https://givingmultiplier.org/happinesslab Listen to The Happiness Lab with Dr. Laurie Santos Listen to Risky BusinessSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Transcribed - Published: 2 December 2024

What does it mean to be a “very important person” in the world of online sports betting? Not necessarily what you think. We hear from recovering gambling addicts and state regulators frustrated with some of the perverse incentives to keep people on a losing streak. Meanwhile, our show’s own producers hope for a VIP night at the concert of the year. For further reading: Legalizing Sports Gambling Was a Huge Mistake by Charles Fain Lehman. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Transcribed - Published: 26 November 2024

The role has many names: “Runner,” “mover,” “betting partner,” and “mule.” As skilled sports gamblers find themselves limited on apps, they turn to these affiliates to place their bets in return for a piece of the proceeds. Against the Rules decides to explore this murky world by signing up for mule-dom with one of the world’s most skilled sports bettors.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Transcribed - Published: 19 November 2024

Constitutional lawyer and former US Solicitor Ted Olson recently died at the age of 84. Olson represented the state of New Jersey in its efforts to overturn a federal ban on sports gambling. Those efforts succeeded, as we hear in our episode "Welcome to the Garden State." But Olson and Michael Lewis talked about many other aspects of his vivid legal career. We're offering their full conversation today.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Transcribed - Published: 15 November 2024

Michael Lewis heads to Las Vegas to explore the way sports betting used to work, up until the day it was rapidly legalized by states around the country. We meet the betting sharps who figured out what others couldn’t and set the odds for other bookies. That is, up until everyone seemed to have a casino on their smartphone. But the new online casino differs from the old ones in an important way: It doesn’t take all bets. For further reading:  Edward Thorp’s Beat the Dealer “Cigars, Booze, Money: How a Lobbying Blitz Made Sports Betting Ubiquitous” by  Eric Lipton and Kenneth P. VogelSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Transcribed - Published: 12 November 2024

We get a sneak-peek of the next part of Michael Lewis's reporting on the rise of sports gambling: it involves a trip to Vegas to meet odds-makers and pro-gamblers, and a scheme that will have his producer betting tens of thousands of someone else's dollars.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Transcribed - Published: 5 November 2024

As the US election nears, Michael Lewis sits down with Nate Silver, co-host of the Pushkin podcast Risky Business (along with the writer, psychologist and professional poker player Maria Konnikova). They talk about why people bet on elections, the problem with sports gamblers in the United States, and Silver’s new book, On the Edge: The Art of Risking Everything. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Transcribed - Published: 29 October 2024

Is there a difference between fandom and religion? In Pittsburgh, it can be hard to tell. Fans of the city’s football team, the Pittsburgh Steelers, seem to have a cradle-to-grave devotion, complete with a golden relic, the “terrible towel.” Michael Lewis talks with sociologist Marci Cottingham, a native of Steeler Nation, about her work studying the religious overtones of fandom, and why the positive experiences of sports fans should get more scholarly attention. For further reading: Marci Cottingham’s Practical Feelings: Emotions as Resources in a Dynamic Social WorldSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Transcribed - Published: 22 October 2024

It may seem like sports gambling got legalized overnight in the US. But it was in fact a winding road to get there. Michael Lewis speaks with legal historian and University of Chicago professor Alison L. LaCroix about all the factors that led to the Supreme Court overturning, in 2018, a federal law called the Professional and Amateur Sports Protection Act. And they explore why, in some eras of US history, the Court tends to lean towards “states rights” arguments. For further reading: Alison LaCroix’s The Interbellum Constitution: Union, Commerce, and Slavery in the Age of FederalismsSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Transcribed - Published: 15 October 2024

How did we get from fantasy sports to legalized sports betting? The path is convoluted, but most of it winds through New Jersey. Michael Lewis speaks with former governor Chris Christie, among other Jersey politicians, as well as lobbyists for the gaming industry. Plus we hear from Ted Olsen, the lawyer who kept bringing the Garden State’s constitutional challenge until it finally reached the Supreme Court — and hit a jackpot. For further reading: Albert Chen’s Billion Dollar Fantasy Murphy v. NCAA ESPN timeline of how sports betting was legalized SCOTUS Blog: The Tenth Amendment, Anti-Commandeering and Sports BettingSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Transcribed - Published: 8 October 2024

Bill Bradley was already famous in college as the epitome of certain American virtues: integrity, honesty, and athleticism. As an NBA star, he took those virtues to the big leagues. As a US Senator, he had a chance to codify some of them into law and prevent the rise of sports betting. But at the same time, others in Bradley's state were making huge money on this illicit form of gambling. For further reading: John McPhee’s A Sense of Where You Are American Bettors Voice, non-profit advocacy for sports bettors co-founded by Gadoon “Spanky” Kryollos. Bill Bradley’s Values of the Game David Hill's The Vapors: Southern Family, the New York Mob, and the Rise and Fall of Hot Springs, America's Forgotten Capital of Vice Professional and Amateur Sports Protection Act of 1992. https://www.congress.gov/bill/102nd-congress/senate-bill/474See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Transcribed - Published: 1 October 2024

Sports fans experience incredible highs and lows, and spend loads of money on a product over which they have no control. But for a long time, no one bothered to study the minds or impulses of fans. Michael Lewis finds out how that's changing as writers and academics learn more about the powerful psychology of fandom. Just in time for technology to exploit fandom more than ever. For further reading: Eric Simons’ book The Secret Lives of Sports Fans Research by Murray State University psychology professor Daniel Wann on fandom: https://murraystate.academia.edu/DanielWann The Henry Tajfel Experiments See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Transcribed - Published: 24 September 2024

Against the Rules is going to Vegas (by way of New Jersey!). Host Michael Lewis bets high and low to find out how Americans, and their state governments, got addicted to a new form of legalized gambling. This season, we’ll meet bookies, lobbyists, lawyers and professional sharps. All in their own ways trying to figure out why fans might hitch their life savings to their favorite team’s performance. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Transcribed - Published: 5 September 2024

Legends are made at the Olympics and this summer shows across the Pushkin network are bringing their unique takes to Olympic stories. This special episode includes excerpts from a few: a Cautionary Tale about underestimating female marathoners, a Jesse Owens story from Revisionist History’s series on Hitler’s Olympics, and—from What’s Your Problem—the new technology that’s helping Olympic athletes get stronger. Check out other show feeds as well, the Happiness Lab and A Slight Change of Plans are also going to the Games. Sylvia Blemker of Springbok Analytics on What’s Your Problem The Women Who Broke the Marathon Taboo on Cautionary Tales Hitler’s Olympics from Revisionist HistorySee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Transcribed - Published: 26 July 2024

Medal of Honor: Stories of Courage is a new podcast telling extraordinary tales of heroism. The Medal of Honor is awarded for bravery in combat that goes far above and beyond the call of duty – those acts of heroism and courage that save lives despite impossible risk. Each week on the show, host Malcolm Gladwell dives into the story behind a different Medal of Honor recipient. If you enjoyed this episode, you can find Medal of Honor: Stories of Courage wherever you're listening now.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Transcribed - Published: 26 June 2024

The disappearance and death of Mitrice Richardson remains Malibu, CA’s most baffling unsolved case. It’s been nearly 14 years since her remains were discovered in a remote canyon, and still, no one has been held accountable for her demise. To this day, her death remains an unsolved mystery. The truth lies in the remote Malibu community where Mitrice was last seen. And now, finally, people are starting to talk. Enjoy this episode from Lost Hills: Dark Canyon. Available wherever you listen to podcasts.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Transcribed - Published: 10 June 2024

Sam Bankman-Fried was sentenced to 25 years in prison after being convicted of fraud and conspiracy. Michael Lewis and Lidia Jean Kott were there in court. They talk about what happened with Judging Sam’s legal expert, Rebecca Mermelstein, a former federal prosecutor and partner at O'Melveny and Myers.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Transcribed - Published: 29 March 2024

While Sam Bankman-Fried has been on trial, the cryptocurrency exchange he founded, FTX, has been going through bankruptcy proceedings. Jonathan Lipson, a professor at Temple Law School, tells Michael Lewis that he believes the proceedings have highlighted problems with the US bankruptcy system. Jonathan Lipson’s research paper “FTX’d: Conflicting Public and Private Interests in Chapter 11” is forthcoming in the Stanford Law Review. You can read a draft here. You can listen to our previous interview about the FTX bankruptcy with Jonathan’s co-author, David Skeel, here. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Transcribed - Published: 27 March 2024

This fall we covered the trial of Sam Bankman-Fried, the founder of the failed cryptocurrency exchange FTX. He was found guilty of fraud and conspiracy and could face decades in prison. Now, we are covering his sentencing. Check here for those episodes starting the week of March 25th.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Transcribed - Published: 22 March 2024

The Happiness Lab’s Dr. Laurie Santos brings together other Pushkin hosts to mark the International Day of Happiness. Revisionist History’s Malcolm Gladwell talks about the benefits of the misery of running in a Canadian winter. Dr. Maya Shankar from A Slight Change of Plans talks about quieting her mental chatter. And Cautionary Tales host Tim Harford surprises everyone with the happiness lessons to be learned from a colonoscopy. Hear more of The Happiness Lab HERE.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Transcribed - Published: 20 March 2024

Enjoy this episode of Freakonomics Radio, where Michael Lewis sat down with Stephen Dubner to discuss his book “Going Infinite: The Rise and Fall of a New Tycoon.” Description from the original episode: Lewis got incredible access to Sam Bankman-Fried, the billionaire behind the spectacular FTX fraud. His book is a bestseller, but some critics say he went too easy on S.B.F. Lewis tells us why the critics are wrong — and what it’s like to watch your book get turned into a courtroom drama.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Transcribed - Published: 19 February 2024

When a Dutch crime reporter makes an unbelievable discovery, a small-town murder case begins to look like an international assassination plot. Enjoy this episode from Hot Money: The New Narcos, a podcast from Pushkin Industries and the Financial Times.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Transcribed - Published: 20 December 2023

Enjoy this episode from another Pushkin Industries podcast, Talk Easy with Sam Fragoso. Upon taking a walk with crypto billionaire Sam Bankman-Fried, writer Michael Lewis had a sense that there might be a story here. In the intervening two years, that story has taken a series of twists and turns, resulting in Lewis’ new book Going Infinite: The Rise and Fall of a New Tycoon. At the top, we walk through Bankman-Fried’s Manhattan trial, the subject at the center of this winding story, and why Lewis was first interested in observing him. Then, he unpacks Bankman-Fried’s belief in effective altruism, his probabilistic approach to trading, and how his Stanford law professor parents shaped his thinking. On the back-half, we discuss the ten-day period of FTX’s collapse, the scene in the Bahamas as Bankman-Fried filed for bankruptcy, and why Lewis felt a kinship with Sam’s parents in that moment. To close, Michael reflects on his own journalistic tendencies and how he managed to write this book in the aftermath of great personal tragedy. For thoughts, reflections, and guest suggestions, drop Sam a line at [email protected] omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Transcribed - Published: 12 December 2023

Lidia Jean Kott talks to journalist Elizabeth Lopatto about what it was like to cover the trial, the similarities it shared with Elizabeth Holmes’ trial, and what this all says about millennials, fraud, and the future of the tech industry. This conversation was recorded on November 13. Questions for Michael? Submit them by clicking the link in our show notes or visiting atrpodcast.com To access bonus episodes, and to listen to all of our coverage ad-free, sign up for Pushkin plus on the Against The Rules show page in Apple Podcasts or at Pushkin.fm/plus.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Transcribed - Published: 17 November 2023

Today on Other People's Pockets, you're going to hear what it's like to receive financial planning advice, and the person receiving the advice is... host Maya Lau! Her income, savings, and retirement goals will get scrutinized by Isabel Barrow, director of financial planning at Edelman Financial Engines and frequent guest on the podcast Everyday Wealth, along with Jean Chatzky, financial journalist and bestselling New York Times author who is also the host of Everyday Wealth. This special episode of Other People's Pockets was produced with support from the Everyday Wealth podcast.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Transcribed - Published: 15 November 2023

It's all over. Sam Bankman-Fried was found guilty on all seven counts. But what now? Michael Lewis, Lidia Jean Kott, and Judging Sam’s legal expert, O’Melveny defense attorney Rebecca Mermelstein, reflect on the outcome and look ahead to sentencing, SBF's other legal troubles, and the fate of the cooperating witnesses. This conversation was recorded on November 7. Questions for Michael? Submit them by clicking the link in our show notes or visiting atrpodcast.com To access bonus episodes, and to listen to all of our coverage ad-free, sign up for Pushkin plus on the Against The Rules show page in Apple Podcasts or at Pushkin.fm/plus.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Transcribed - Published: 9 November 2023

The jury, after about 4 and a half hours of deliberation, has delivered its verdict – guilty on all seven counts. Lidia Jean Kott was in the courtroom when it happened. Her conversation with financial reporter Jacob Goldstein was recorded on November 2. Questions for Michael? Submit them by clicking the link in our show notes or visiting atrpodcast.com To access bonus episodes, and to listen to all of our coverage ad-free, sign up for Pushkin plus on the Against The Rules show page in Apple Podcasts or at Pushkin.fm/plus. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Transcribed - Published: 3 November 2023

CORRECTION: In an earlier version of this episode, our guest incorrectly stated that in the case of a hung jury, a defendant cannot be retried without risking double jeopardy. This is incorrect. If the jury hangs, then the defendant can be retried. We have edited the episode to remove this and apologize for the error. It’s nearly time for the jury to begin their deliberations. They’ll file into a backroom at the courthouse, and SBF’s fate will be in their hands. But what goes on behind those doors? How will the jury get to its verdict? Trial consultant Ellen Leggett returns to the show to talk through the process with Lidia Jean Kott. This conversation was recorded on October 27 and updated on November 1. Questions for Michael? Submit them by clicking the link in our show notes or visiting atrpodcast.com To access bonus episodes, and to listen to all of our coverage ad-free, sign up for Pushkin plus on the Against The Rules show page in Apple Podcasts or at Pushkin.fm/plus.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Transcribed - Published: 2 November 2023

We're finally in the home stretch. Today the prosecution finished their cross examination of Sam Bankman-Fried, the defense followed up with a redirect, and then both sides rested. It’s Michael’s last day at court, but Lidia Jean will attend until the bitter end. They sit down to talk through the trial day’s events. This conversation was recorded on October 31. Questions for Michael? Submit them by clicking the link in our show notes or visiting atrpodcast.com To access bonus episodes, and to listen to all of our coverage ad-free, sign up for Pushkin plus on the Against The Rules show page in Apple Podcasts or at Pushkin.fm/plus.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Transcribed - Published: 1 November 2023

Sam Bankman-Fried finishes direct and faces withering cross-examination by the government’s chief prosecutor, Danielle Sassoon. Michael Lewis and Lidia Jean Kott share notes during lunch, then Lidia Jean sits down with Pushkin financial reporter and host Jacob Goldstein to talk through the day’s events. This conversation was recorded on October 30. Questions for Michael? Submit them by clicking the link in our show notes or visiting atrpodcast.com To access bonus episodes, and to listen to all of our coverage ad-free, sign up for Pushkin plus on the Against The Rules show page in Apple Podcasts or at Pushkin.fm/plus.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Transcribed - Published: 31 October 2023

The day is finally upon us: Sam Bankman-Fried takes the stand. Michael Lewis and Lidia Jean meet up after a long day in court and discuss everything that went down. This conversation was recorded on October 27. Questions for Michael? Submit them by clicking the link in our show notes or visiting atrpodcast.com To access bonus episodes, and to listen to all of our coverage ad-free, sign up for Pushkin plus on the Against The Rules show page in Apple Podcasts or at Pushkin.fm/plus.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Transcribed - Published: 28 October 2023

Michael Lewis finishes his book tour and joins Lidia Jean Kott in court. His timing, as usual, is impeccable. The government rests its case. And then, everyone thinks Sam Bankman-Fried will take the stand. Instead, in a surprise twist, Judge Kaplan sends the jury home. LJ and Michael meet up on the courthouse steps to talk through the day’s events. This conversation was recorded on October 26. Questions for Michael? Submit them by clicking the link in our show notes or visiting atrpodcast.com To access bonus episodes, and to listen to all of our coverage ad-free, sign up for Pushkin plus on the Against The Rules show page in Apple Podcasts or at Pushkin.fm/plus.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Transcribed - Published: 27 October 2023

After a few days off, the trial resumes tomorrow, October 26. The prosecution has said they will likely be ready to rest their case by midday. Michael Lewis, Lidia Jean Kott and Rebecca Mermelstein, a partner at the law firm O’Melveny & Myers, sit down to analyze the prosecution’s case and talk about what might happen next, including the possibility of Sam Bankman-Fried taking the stand. This conversation was recorded on October 23. Questions for Michael? Submit them by clicking the link in our show notes or visiting atrpodcast.com To access bonus episodes, and to listen to all of our coverage ad-free, sign up for Pushkin plus on the Against The Rules show page in Apple Podcasts or at Pushkin.fm/plus.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Transcribed - Published: 25 October 2023

Voices of the victims of Sam Bankman-Fried’s alleged crimes have been few and far between during the prosecution’s presentation of its case. On today’s show, Lidia Jean Kott sits down with Jake Thacker, a tech worker from Portland, Oregon who borrowed money to bet big on FTX, only to be left holding the bag. He says he’s now bankrupt and unsure whether he’ll be able to keep his home. This conversation was recorded on October 23. Questions for Michael? Submit them by clicking the link in our show notes or visiting atrpodcast.com To access bonus episodes, and to listen to all of our coverage ad-free, sign up for Pushkin plus on the Against The Rules show page in Apple Podcasts or at Pushkin.fm/plus.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Transcribed - Published: 24 October 2023

Another week come and gone, and like everything SBF, it wasn’t without a healthy dose of drama. Lidia Jean Kott catches Michael Lewis and Jacob Goldstein up on all that has gone down. This conversation was recorded on the evening of October 19. Questions for Michael? Submit them by clicking the link in our show notes or visiting atrpodcast.com To access bonus episodes, and to listen to all of our coverage ad-free, sign up for Pushkin plus on the Against The Rules show page in Apple Podcasts or at Pushkin.fm/plus.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Transcribed - Published: 20 October 2023

When nerdy gamer Sam Bankman-Fried rocketed to fame as the world’s richest 29-year-old, he pledged to donate his billions to good causes. But when Sam's crypto exchange FTX collapsed, billions of dollars went missing, and Sam was in handcuffs, those who knew him were left wondering — who was Sam really? A well-meaning billionaire who made a mistake? Or a calculated con man? From Wondery and Bloomberg, the makers of The Shrink Next Door, comes a new story of incredible wealth, betrayal, and what happens when “doing good” goes really, really, bad. Binge all episodes of Spellcaster ad-free right now by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery App or on Apple Podcasts. Listen to Spellcaster. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Transcribed - Published: 19 October 2023

Today on the show, Michael talks with Matt Levine, business columnist at Bloomberg News and author of the newsletter “Money Stuff.” Matt knows more about how crypto markets work than just about anyone else. And also about how they don’t work. Like when there’s a more than eight billion dollar hole nobody seems to have been able to fill. Matt and Michael talk trial, SBF and FTX. This conversation was recorded at 2pm on October 17. Questions for Michael? Submit them by clicking the link in our show notes or visiting atrpodcast.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Transcribed - Published: 18 October 2023

It was supposed to be a quiet Monday in court, but it turned out to be everything but. Nishad Singh, a former top executive at FTX, and a close personal friend of the Bankman-Fried family took the stand. Lidia Jean calls Michael Lewis from court during her lunch break to get his take on Singh, and updates us with the latest as the SBF trial enters its third week. This conversation was recorded on the evening of October 16. Questions for Michael? Submit them by clicking the link in our show notes or visiting atrpodcast.com To access bonus episodes, and to listen to all of our coverage ad-free, sign up for Pushkin plus on the Against The Rules show page in Apple Podcasts or at Pushkin.fm/plus.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Transcribed - Published: 17 October 2023

Week 2 of Sam Bankman-Fried’s trial is in the books. The prosecution has called witnesses, including star witness Caroline Ellison, and the defense has cross-examined. There have been dramatic, emotional moments, a secret recording and laughter in the overflow rooms. Lidia Jean has been in court, and Michael has been on book tour. In this episode they catch each other up. Michael is curious how the characters he got to know while reporting his book have come off in court. This conversation was recorded on October 14. Questions for Michael? Submit them by clicking the link in our show notes or visiting atrpodcast.com To access bonus episodes, and to listen to all of our coverage ad-free, sign up for Pushkin plus on the Against The Rules show page in Apple Podcasts or at Pushkin.fm/plus.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Transcribed - Published: 16 October 2023

Caroline Ellison, former co-CEO of Alameda Research and Sam Bankman-Fried’s ex-girlfriend, spent 3 days on the stand this week. Ellison recently pled guilty to financial fraud, and is cooperating with the prosecution. In this episode Lidia Jean Kott discusses Caroline’s testimony with Jacob Goldstein, financial reporter and author of the book Money. This conversation was recorded in the evening on October 12. Questions for Michael? Submit them by clicking the link in our show notes or visiting atrpodcast.com To access bonus episodes, and to listen to all of our coverage ad-free, sign up for Pushkin plus on the Against The Rules show page in Apple Podcasts or at Pushkin.fm/plus.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Transcribed - Published: 13 October 2023

Caroline Ellison, former co-CEO of Alameda Research and Sam Bankman-Fried’s ex-girlfriend, takes the stand and has a lot to say. Ellison recently pled guilty to financial fraud, and is cooperating with the prosecution. In this episode Lidia Jean Kott discusses what came up on Day 1 of Caroline’s testimony with Jacob Goldstein, financial reporter and author of the book Money. This conversation was recorded in the evening on October 10. Questions for Michael? Submit them by clicking the link in our show notes or visiting atrpodcast.com To access bonus episodes, and to listen to all of our coverage ad-free, sign up for Pushkin plus on the Against The Rules show page in Apple Podcasts or at Pushkin.fm/plus.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Transcribed - Published: 11 October 2023

Week 1 of Sam Bankman-Fried’s trial is in the books. The jury is seated, opening statements have been given, and witnesses are taking the stand. Lidia Jean has been in court, and Michael has been on book tour. In this episode they catch each other up. Michael wants to know what it’s like inside the courtroom, and Lidia Jean is curious about what new information Michael is learning. This conversation was recorded on October 7. Questions for Michael? Submit them by clicking the link in our show notes or visiting atrpodcast.com To listen to all of our coverage ad-free, sign up for Pushkin plus on the Against The Rules show page in Apple Podcasts or at Pushkin.fm/plusSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Transcribed - Published: 9 October 2023