Every defeat, every heartbreak, every loss contains its own seed, its own lesson, wrote Malcolm X,

and will flesh out the hidden lessons in a panic attack in part two of our interview with Steve Hayes.

Welcome to the Carlet Psychiatry Podcast, keeping psychiatry honest since 2003.

I'm Chris Sagan, the editor-in-chief of the Carlat Psychiatry Report.

And I'm Kelly Newsom, the PsychenP, and a dedicated reader of every issue.

When we left Steve Hayes last week, he was prostrate on a shag carpet in the middle of the night,

paralyzed by the worst panic attack of his life. He had tried everything. And this time,

his desperation led him to reach out for something completely irrational. He reached for more

panic. And in moving into the panic, instead of away from it,

he found the seed of acceptance and commitment therapy.

What have you arrived at this kind of discovery without having gone through panic yourself?

Tell me about that.

No, and one suspicion that I would not is I'm part of the evidence-based therapy wing,

but when I stepped out strongly with that, which I didn't do for a long time,

because I wanted to know not just what,

but why.

It wasn't it 10 or 15 years of research before you really stepped up?

20, yeah.

From the night of the carpet moment to almost 20, so act as 45 years old.

And I'm a hard worker, man. I've published 700 articles. You know,

in some rankings, top 30 psychologists, top 10 clinical psychologists, sorry for the self-praise,

but I just, you know, I work hard and I'm well known. But I just would not step forward until I understood why.

...