Why Trump’s Cartoonish Fascism Is So Effective with Jason Stanley

On with Kara Swisher

New York Magazine

Society & Culture

4.2 • 3.2K Ratings

🗓️ 18 August 2025

⏱️ 47 minutes

🔗️ Recording | iTunes | RSS

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Summary

As federal troops patrol the capital and masked men whisk away immigrants in unmarked cars, it’s reasonable to ask: is President Trump a fascist? According to Jason Stanley, the answer is a resounding yes. Stanley is a philosopher and the author of seven books, including How Propaganda Works, How Fascism Works, and Erasing History. He’ll be teaching at the University of Toronto this fall, after leaving Yale and the United States for Canada. He describes his self-imposed exile as an expressive act meant to sound an alarm, but Kara is skeptical, and the two of them spar over his choice. They also break down the ways in which Trump is following the fascist playbook — from cultural capture of museums and universities, to data manipulation, and emergency declarations — and the role of the media in normalizing anti-democratic power grabs. Finally they debate whether MAGA can survive without Trump, and whether America can survive MAGA. Questions? Comments? Email us at on@voxmedia.com or find us on YouTube, Instagram, TikTok, and Bluesky @onwithkaraswisher. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Transcript

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0:00.0	Oe-Ve.
0:01.0	Don't oi-ve at me.
0:03.0	Hi, everyone, from New York Magazine, the Vox Media Podcast Network.
0:18.0	This is on with Kara Swisher, and I'm Kara Swisher.
0:21.7	My guest today is Jason Stanley, an expert on fascism and the professor of philosophy.
0:27.0	Stanley, along with his colleagues Marcy Shore and Tim Snyder, made international news when they
0:31.9	decided to leave Yale and America for Canada, where they'll be teaching at the Monk School of
0:37.1	Global Affairs and Public Policy at the University of'll be teaching at the Monk School of Global Affairs and Public
0:38.1	Policy at the University of Toronto. He's the author of seven books, including how fascism works,
0:43.8	the politics of us and them, and erasing history, how fascists rewrite the past and control
0:49.1	the future. I'm excited to talk to him because I'd followed Jason for a long time. I just ran into
0:53.5	him at a book festival.
0:55.1	And we have a lot in common. We've talked about a lot of the same things. I gave him a hard time for leaving this country. He said you should stay here and fight. And we'll talk about that too. We have two expert questions for Stanley. One from Clay Risen, the author of Red Scare, Blacklist, McCarthyism, and The Making of Modern America,
1:12.6	and a reporter at the New York Times,
1:14.3	who we recently had on the podcast.
1:16.1	And another from Deb Roy,
1:17.4	someone I've known for a long time, a techie.
1:19.7	He's a professor of media arts and scientists at MIT
1:22.4	and the director of the Center for Constructive Communication.
1:26.1	This is a really sharp conversation, so stick around.
1:29.7	And come back, Jason.
1:38.1	Support for On with Caroushisher comes from Sacks Fifth Avenue.
	...

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