The Closer Podcast brings you the inside story of deals changing the world, told by the people who know how it all went down.

Understand the human motivations behind groundbreaking business decisions with host Amy Keene.

Listen to The Closer, wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome to the HBO Idea Cast from Harvard Business Review. I'm Sarah Green Carmichael. Today I'm

talking with regular HBR contributor Dory Clark, author of most recently the books

stand out. Dory, thank you so much for talking with us today.

Thanks, Sarah. Great to talk with you.

So, Dory, in the beginning of this book,

you defend a term that I'm personally on the record

it is saying I'm no fan of, which is the term thought thought leader I have always found this I have to

admit somewhat of an icky term I don't know if I want someone to lead my

thoughts and I'm sort of just wondering why can't we just say expert why do we need this term

thought leader and why do we need more people to embrace it and become thought leaders?

So I agree with you 100% that it is very icky when people call themselves

thought leaders because that that sounds a little

bit ego-miniacal. But I actually think that thought leadership is something that is worthy to be aspired to because I actually like the

precision of the definition. Being an expert is great, right? It's fantastic, but I

don't think it's sufficient anymore.

Thought leader, if you parse it, if you break it down into its constituent parts.

So number one, thought, right? It means that you are being known and recognized for your ideas. It means

that you have that expertise. You know, that's a valuable thing that I think we can all agree on. But

the leader part is the essential one.

There are far too many people who are in their ivory tower, they have great ideas, but they

...