Why pop songwriters break the rules (ft. Amy Allen)

Switched on Pop

Vox Media Podcast Network

Music Interviews, Music History, Music, Music Commentary

4.6 • 2.7K Ratings

🗓️ 12 December 2025

⏱️ 58 minutes

🔗️ Recording | iTunes | RSS

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Summary

Grammy-winning songwriter Amy Allen joins NYU Steinhardt students live to trace her path from early pitch songs to co-writing some of the decade's defining hits. She explains why Halsey's "Without Me" needed an extended chorus but no pre-made chord loops, how Harry Styles' "Matilda" required character-driven writing for emotional safety, and what made the hypnotic groove of Tate McRae's "Greedy" demand a rare third verse. Allen also unpacks the spoken hook in Rosé and Bruno Mars' "APT" and the three-step key change powering Sabrina Carpenter's recent work. The result is a masterclass in why songs work—and why the rules worth breaking are the ones you've already learned. SONGS DISCUSSED Halsey "Without Me" Harry Styles "Adore You" Harry Styles "Matilda" Tate McRae "greedy" Rosé and Bruno Mars "ATA" Sabrina Carpenter "Please, please, please" Selena Gomez "Back to You" Justin Timberlake "Cry Me A River" (Interpolated in "Without Me") Olivia Rodrigo "Driver's License" Sabrina Carpenter "Espresso" Sabrina Carpenter Short and Sweet (Album) Sabrina Carpenter Man's Best Friend (Album) Beyoncé "Love on Top" Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Transcript

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0:00.0	Support for Switched on Pop comes from Sonos.
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0:34.6	Explore Sonos speakers, soundbars, and more at Sonos.com.
0:41.9	Welcome to Switched on Pop. I'm songwriter Charlie Harding. Tonight, we are joined by the great
0:52.7	songwriter Amy Allen.
0:54.2	Amy grew up in Maine.
0:55.8	I grew up in Maine, so that means a lot to me.
0:58.0	She grew up playing folk and bluegrass and local venues from a young age.
1:01.8	And after two years of nursing school at Boston College, she transferred to Berkeley College
1:06.9	of Music, graduating with a focus in songwriting.
1:10.4	She went on to front her band Amy and
1:11.7	the Engine, but eventually disbanded the group in order to focus on honing her songwriting craft.
1:17.0	After a year working in New York City, she landed her first major cut, a pitch song for
1:22.3	Selena Gomez called Back to You. She then moved to Los Angeles, writing almost daily, often
1:27.4	doing double sessions,
1:29.0	and her tireless work ethic has resulted in a run of hits that have helped define modern pop.
	...

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