Hello from Washington. I'm Chuck Todd, and this is the Chuck Todd cast. My guest today is

Mike Duggan. He's currently the mayor of Detroit, and he recently announced he'll be running for

Governor Michigan in 2026. But he's going to run as an independent, even though he's been a Democrat

for nearly four decades. It's a seismic development for Michigan politics,

and there may be a lot to glean in there

about the state of the Democratic Party nationally as well, that's brand.

But also, this is a moment that's bigger than either party.

We know, and he'll be discussing it,

the fastest growing party in America is no party,

either independent, no party, however you want to look at it.

And we have not had many people trying to meet those voters directly.

Those that have had success, whether it's Bernie Sanders on the left, Donald Trump on the right.

So it's going to be interesting to watch.

Before we get started, remember to stick around for another listener question.

This one is one part, what if, one part news of the day.

We'll have our what if series starting next week, so stick around for that.

But before I get to my interview with Mike Duggan, and it's a pretty complete interview,

it's not just about Michigan politics, but sort of about sort of governing in these polarized times.

My column today, is out there right now, today being Wednesday, I'm going to signpost this

for you. I'm taping here on a Tuesday, but you'll be hearing this Wednesday morning, December 18th.

And my title's, the next great reform movement begins now. And the point

is, is that I've been talking about, and if you listen to this podcast, this is going to be

...