James Rogers is with us. He teaches political science at Texas A&M University. He is a

contributing editor at Law and Liberty, and he has edited institutional games and the Supreme Court.

He has co-edited a new book with, actually, a prominent First Things contributor, Peter Lightheart.

The book is entitled, Hell Shall Not Prevail.

Essays on Ecclesiocentric Post-Lalism. That's our topic today. Welcome, Professor

Rogers. Thank you. Peter Lighthart, we jump right in. Peter Lighthart says in the foreword that

liberalism, quote, has become both a parity and an inversion of itself. What does he mean by that? If I can ask you to speak for

your co-editor? Sure. I do it all the time, so I'm sure he won't mind. Well, the thing that

it promises such, I mean, for example, respect for persons.

We suggest in the book, there's one chapter by Dave Wright or devoted to discussing this,

is actually unable to deliver what it promises,

that without the foundation of the Amad God, right, that humanity is created in the image of God,

this sort of respect for persons cannot actually be actualized.

In addition to that, seen in, I mean, I teach constitutional law, among other things, seen in constitutional law decisions of the last 30, 40 years, is a sort of hyper form of individualism that celebrates autonomy, almost detached from everything else, as a central constitutional value,

versus an older and perhaps wiser distinction between liberty and license that we saw probably before 1920, 1930, something like that.

He goes on to speak. I mean, you talked about the autonomous individual really is almost the prime figure in liberalism. But we also have this rise of a controlling, coercive,

21st century liberalism that gives the state ever more intrusive powers on our individual

lives. Does it, is it becoming clear what you, what you suggested at a moment

with the Imago Day, is it becoming clear that the church, or the church is, was the only thing

that under a liberal polity would check state power? Do you think that's the case?

Well, I think it was certainly that it's the prime or first, if we could put it that way.

I mean, our next Civitas series is on nations and nationalism, for example.

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