Hello and welcome to the Red Box Politics Podcast from The Times, I'm Matt

Jolley. This is part two of our special on new political parties joining me

in the studio Lucy Fisher senior political correspondent for The Times

and Times columnist Philip Collins and Daniel Figgelstein.

So let's discuss what chances a new party has, whether that's renew or rubbish or the

DMV party or whatever.

Let's start with you, Phil.

I know you've written a lot about it in the times.

I don't think the chances of the rubbish party ascending to government are particularly high.

I think if a rupture comes in the political system it will come from inside not outside. I don't think anybody's got the

capacity to break it from the outside. What people from the outside can and must

bring will be energy, vitality and the sense of novelty because any movement which succeeds in breaking a completely broken system

will have to cast itself somehow new.

And that's perfectly possible from inside.

That's exactly what Macron did actually in France.

It's funny of what the SDP did in 1981.

You have to have that sense of novelty.

So the outside people will be very important, but they can't break it.

So if a rupture comes, it will be on conventional terms

because both parties are now led by their Benite wings and there is a there is an

issue which is cataclysmic on which those parties might conceivably

break and there are as a large number of people in Britain who feel politically homeless.

...