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slash join slash cultivated. Okay, on with the show. You know, as you were a teenager as you're

growing up, did you anticipate doing what you're doing now? Like, what did you think you would be

when you were 18, 20 years old? Yeah. I had a deep spirituality,

like I say, but I did not see that translating into pastoral ministry. So I've been in ministry

in some form of the other for the last 20 years or so, pastoral ministry for 11 of those years,

and then seminary

education and writing and counseling and other things the rest of the time.

This is my friend Chuck de Groat.

Chuck is a professor of pastoral care and counseling at Western Seminary, and is the author

of several books, including one of my favorite recent reads on spirituality, wholeheartedness.

I did not see it translating into going to seminary and becoming a pastor.

That happened a little bit later, in part because of the influence of a pastor in my life

who saw that as a good trajectory for me.

...