What up, my homies! Welcome back to another episode of Women of Impact, I'm Lisa Villier and I'm joined today by an amazing incredible woman called Nadine Macauso. Now if you've ever seen the blockbuster mega hit, War for War Street, yes the one with Leonardo DiCaprio, then you will know her as the wife. Now ex-wife and psychologist and goes by the name Doctor May, we're diving into all the ways we get drawn into the gravitational pull of these toxic men who excel at the art of pathological love and lies. Guys, we're diving into the treacherous waters of love to seat in the lure of a toxic man. In our home talking about lies, those wolves and sheep's clothing who sweep us us off our feet, with gifts, mind blowing sets and flattery straight out of the Hollywood script. Now here's a kicker, for those of you who've managed to actually break free and piecing your life back together, Dr. May's got some news for you. Just because he's no longer living in your house, doesn't mean you should still let him take up residence in your head. It's breaking time to evict those toxic doors and regain your mental real estate. So if you've ever been to a relationship that shook your world, stole your trust and left you questioning your confidence and self-worth and today's episode of my homie is dedicated to you. I'm Miss Lilleu and welcome to one of Impact.

So you actually married to the real life of Wolf of Wall Street. You were manipulated, dominated, threatened and intimidated. Gaslit abused, love bond in your relationship that was actually then seen as entertainment by over a billion people in the mega hit movie with Leonardo Now knowing what you know now about your ex, how would you spot a wolf in sheep's clothing? Back then when I was living it, you know, I had no idea. And so the way that I would spot a wolf in sheep's clothing is, are they a love bomber? Do you get so much love and admiration and flattery and gifts from them right away? Those things seem wonderful, but often if they're too good to be true, they are. And also, does the person's words match their actions? Do they actually follow up and say, do what they say they're gonna do. And do they allow you to have boundaries?

Because... right? Do they actually follow up and say, do what they say they're going to do? And do they allow you to have boundaries? Because a lot of pathological people don't respect your boundaries because they don't respect who you are as a person. So as you're seeing the movie, Margot goes on a date as me, right? I go on a date with Jordan. And I home to an apartment full of flowers. I mean that was real so I lived in a small 800 square foot place and there was so many flowers in there that I couldn't fit in and that was just so strange to me it just my god was like. Who does this? Why is that you know why is that necessary really just had a conversation. And actually the way I got on that date is pretty fascinating in that somebody was calling me this woman who I didn't even really know. He was calling me and I, to go out and I didn't want to go out because I didn't know her. She wasn't my friend, but she was really harassing me to the point that she got me to go out with her, which meant with him, that I didn't know that he had paid her $15,000 to get me set up on this date. And so my gut, when she kept calling me, was like, this is weird. Why is she asking me? And I remember saying to her, okay, finally I'll go. And she said, well, you know, that guy Jordan's going be there. And I said, isn't he married? And she said, what do you care? And I said, no, I don't care. I just think it's strange. Right? So there were these little nuanced things that my gut was saying, danger, strange, danger. But I just as a young 22 year old girl, I just pushed it down. Yeah, thank you for breaking that down because I'm always living in that wrong moment of, if I went into my apartment and had an upon full of flowers, that would make me feel good. Yes, it did make me feel good and that's the trick with these guys, right? It's good, but you still have that moment. And it just seemed strange. You just don't do that. And then he would send $15,000 in cash to all of these over-the-top things. Which again, I always had that this is great and fun, but it's weird. So how would you now then not get trapped in that? Because there's that gut intuition like you said that's telling you this is weird. But at the same time because it feels good, because it's unfamiliar, you can convince yourself in that moment, but maybe it's just really nice. Like you really just does care about you. So how do you make sure that that doesn't become the trap that lures you in? Yes, I think if I was going to go back in time, I wouldn't ignore that uh-oh. I wouldn't ignore that gut or I would explore it more, I would challenge it more. Like like when he sat down for dinner, let's say when I was set up, you know, to say to him, why are you here? Aren't you married? You know, I was just like co-cadish and we just had a great conversation. And so I think I would trust that gut feeling and being inquisitive and curious and use my voice to find out the truth because I didn't know I was being groomed and lured in. Right? And I just wouldn't trust that feel good dopamine feeling. That groomed word really hit me. Yeah. So is that how you feel that that was moments of grooming for you to become under his control? Yes. I call it like a slow and serious burn. Like it's it just happens and it just keeps happening. And you feel so good and you feel so alive because it's the beginning of an infatuation. So it's hard to get out. It puts you in a trance almost. And there are little things along the way and the goal posts keep moving. And so then you're, right? Because the grooming happens because they're adoring and helpful and generous. But then it gets turned and it was, you know, if you don't marry me, I'm not going to date you. If you don't have children, right, I'm not going to marry you. So there's all this grooming and this luring in and you're in love and then it goes like, boom. Now you're now the control starts, but you're already so sucked in. Do you remember that first moment that you saw that it was with that whole, you know, if you don't marry me, I'm not going to date you. And I was like, what? I don't want to get married. I'm 23, you know? But I didn't understand what domination and intimidation and coercive control was back then. I didn't understand what boundaries were. I didn't know he was plowing through my boundaries because a trauma bond needs two conditions to exist. And the first one is intermittent reinforcement. And it's that extreme generous helpfulness, kindness, appreciation, love that you initially feel, right? But then it's the cruelty, the controlling, the lying or the betrayal that also happens. And what happens is that it's the extremity of both of those feelings and behaviors that keep you bonded to the person. And the research shows, and I wrote about this in my book, and when I read this research, I felt such joy because such validation that with animal trainers, if they treat animals like that, the animal bonds more to the trainer that uses intermittent reinforcement, then there the trainer that uses straight kindness. By over like 200%. Yeah, 230%. Right. Yep. And that creates the two masks of the person, the generous loving, kind person and the cruel, controlling, lying individual. And so if you start to see this, let's say in the dating phase, that's a massive red flag to not then, obviously, marry and settle down because then I assume it becomes way more difficult to leave the more in meshed you guys are. Yes, the more bonded that you become. And then let's just say, you know, you're, you're emotionally dependent on them, you're financially dependent on them, or you have children with them, right? It gets harder and harder to get yourself out. And that, you know, that brings me to the second factor in a trauma bind is the power imbalance, right? And so the power imbalance also needs to be there. And just by the very fact that you love someone, they have power over you.

Right? And so they can abuse it. And then if you live with a dominating, intimidating, coercively controlling person, they gain power over you because you fear them. Right? And then the social power index explains it as someone who makes most of the decisions. most of the decisions about the home, the car, the kids, the life. And so yeah, that power imbalance mixed with the intermittent abuse are the two conditions that have to be there. And we certainly had a power imbalance because he made so much money and had so much power, even though there was only a five year age difference between us. Was Jordan the first type of guy that you had met that was like that where he was like lavishing and over the top and eccentric? I would say so. I say he's one of my best friends. But do you even think that that became part of the enama and the reason why I asked this is because a lot of people are attracted, maybe subconsciously, to the excitement of the extreme. And in that, we end up ignoring the good guy, the guy that stable, the guy that's very consistent. Yes. I always was drawn to successful men that were in their power. And I think a lot of that was about because I didn't own my own power. So I projected that power onto them, right? So I was very enamored by their power because I think, of course, as a 22-year-old young girl, I didn't understand how I could connect to my power, right? So that definitely was a piece of it. But he was definitely in his own league with that. But that's where it's kind of, you know, I love to like really get deep into like that initial thing because what attracts us to that, I'm very attracted to ambition. And because of that, it comes with someone working a lot. So the things that you're attracted to has has a consequence, let's say. Now sometimes that consequence can be extreme. Right? Where if they're grandiose, then it can become extreme in both ends. Yes. But often what I've realized is a lot of us, and I'm going to speak for myself, ignore the good guy. The guy that's again consistent, doesn't have the highs, doesn't have the lows.

Yes. And now, unfortunately, we're maybe labeling them as boring. Because this is someone like, you watch Wolf of Wall Street, I'm going to be honest. It seems like I want to hang out with him. I just want to have a crazy party with him. Like, even though I wasn't, but it just, there's with glamour and notoriety and influence with that.

Yes. even though I wasn't, but it just, there's, weird glamour and notoriety and influence with that. Yes, yes, and a more, I don't wanna say normal person, but a more pedestrian person, right? Wasn't going to go after me in that way, right? So there was more about like him choosing me, than me choosing him. If that makes sense, right? So like a, let's say a person who's not as grandiose, let's use that word, isn't going to pursue me as much. And so I just might be a little bit more lazefair about it. I'm sure I overlooked some very nice men, but you know, grandiose, magnetic, magnetic charismatic charming people are very alluring. I mean all we have to do is look at our political life, our media, you know, where we're they're fascinating and he was fascinating and very bright and very cute. And you call him a pathological lover. Yes. So talk to me about that. What is a pathological lover? Yes. And why is that maybe a sign that we can start to identify if they are or not that it could lead to potential turmoil down the road? Right. So the reason why I use the term pathological lover is because pathological means mentally unwell. So I describe this person as someone who will use harm, betray, and exploit you to get their needs met from money, power, pleasure, or status. Stat. So anybody who will do that in my eyes is mentally unwell. I don't look at people as a means to an end. I look at people as a means to connect and bond and grow with. And so that's why I use the term pathological lover because they're very complex. That's them on a basic level. And a lot of people throw them the word narcissist. And so a narcissist are actually lighter. They have a lot lighter aspects. Yes, they're self-absorbed. They're entitled. They can be grandiose. But these people can also be Machiavellian, which means manipulative, psychopathic, which means very cold and callous and can attach and even sadistic. So they're very layered people, it's not just narcissism. Yeah, it's so complex and you even talk in your book, you call it, and they twisted or tender, they love or torture. Yes. When you can confuse those two and you don't know which ones which, or really smokes no one to summon your boss are getting frickin traps now in these types of relationships. Yes. And there's a scene actually in a wolf of war shoot that I'd love to talk about. Sure. It's a scene where, and I've heard you say, it didn't actually happen like that, because you weren't necessarily a jealous person, but it's where Margot Robert goes into the room and splashes water on Leo as he's sleeping. And that scene, he gets up in screams, and then he starts to become dominant, and then he realizes that doesn't work. And then he starts to be sweet and he starts to pull her closer. Come on. Then she doesn't fall for it. So then he flips again and he gets mad at her again. And so seeing this one scene where you've got this one person go through these changes of strategy of how he's trying to manipulate you. Nipulate you, he sees one thing doesn't work and then he tries something else. Was that accurate? Yes. Yes. And I think that the way you explained it is really brilliant. I hadn't even thought of the scene like that. So thank you for breaking it down like that. Yeah. It's that manipulative. It's constant manipulation. And so this is a hard part that I say to a lot of women because they'll come in and they'll say, but he was so nice and he brought my cat this and he did this or he picked up my dry cleaning or he cooked me dinner and I say to them, I hate to tell you this, but the nice part is manipulative, too. And it breaks my heart to, and I always say that to them. I'm gonna say something hard, and I know it's really hard to hear, but the nice part was part of the manipulation to lure you, to groom you, to get you to fall in love, to get you to be in their trance. But you saw that. Yeah, that he's trying to manipulate her. Yeah, he's like, okay, that didn't work. Let me try this. Oh, that didn't work. Let me saw that. Yeah, because he's trying to manipulate her.

Yeah, he's like, okay, that didn't work.

Let me try this. Oh, that didn't work. Let me try that. And it's in the, I mean, it's in a space of, you know, a minute. And so when something like that's happening, if you don't have the confidence, if you don't actually understand what is going on, and that person holds the power, holds the power. I can see how that can be such a trap and you means it like he had, I

mean, hit the person holds the power. Right. I can see how that can be such a trap. And you means it like he had, I mean, the wealth and the fame and the power that he had over you. And once you started to notice these toxic behavioral things happen. Yeah. And what was your mental thinking? Where are you looking for an out? Why are you looking to just make peace within that relationship? Because so many people, I think, just try to make peace in the relationship. Yeah. First of all, I was in love, right? So I wanted things to be calm and peaceful and I'm actually a confident woman and I think I was grandierous in my own thinking that I thought that I could control Jordan Bell for it. And not control him, but that I had, that he loved me enough, that he would change, that he would see the light, that if I worked a little harder, if I did a little better, if I please him a little bit more, if I, so I was always trying to distort myself, I, to try to get him to calm down and be kinder, or not to drugs, really. Sometimes I'd be strong, sometimes I'd be top, but nothing I did mattered, because it wasn't about me. You saying your book, the hope is a hook. Yeah. Yeah, hope is the hook. And especially I'm a highly optimistic person. You really are so optimistic. And so I always just see the best in everybody. I assume the best about everybody, about situations. I'm just born. My name Nadine means hope. So it's just part of who I am. Yeah, and hope kept me hooked and it keeps a lot of women hooked. Especially if after somebody hurts you, then you know, the next day they bring a horse down your driveway because they know you like to ride horses. Bies, you a bow or a yacht. Yeah. Actually, that's interesting when you were saying about the controlling that you definitely gave your own. I'd love to go a little deeper in that. Sure. Because I was in a very toxic relationship before I met my husband. And it was about four years. I was very young. I started at 15 so you can imagine. I don't know who I am. Baby, yeah. Such a baby. And what I want to be always honest about is over time, I became toxic too as a protective mechanism. Yes. In that relationship. Yes. So every time he would give it, I would try to just give it as good as I could get. Yes. A big part of a trauma bond issue, lose yourself. And so I did lose that. I think some of my goodness. I did become more toxic or as what we would call more reactive abuse. Right. Because after time and time, you, you, I've had it. So I would react in ways that I thought were very ugly that I didn't like about myself. But again, I was so confused and I had so much cognitive dissonance, you know, which will address, you know, that I just was like an amaze in my head, you know, but I knew slowly but surely I wasn't reaching my potential in life and love by living with him. I knew that and I saw myself start to start to fall apart. Do you mind talking about cognitive distance? Yeah, yeah, that's a really important term and cognitive dissonance is when we feel mentally we have an internal conflict because two ideas that we're holding don't aren't congruent. Right, so that happens from the two sides of the mask. So you have the loving love bomber, the generous helpful guy and the sadistic cruel guy. And so you start to think, is he good, is he bad? Is there a relationship good or bad? Am I healthy or unhealthy? And so you constantly have cognitive dissonance about him, about yourself. How could I stay with him? I'm supposed to be a moral, ethical person. How can I say with him and about the relationship? So you have three layers of cognitive dissonance ping ponging all the time in your brain which cause your Executive function to fail you can't think you can't strategize and you're utterly confused and so that is Another big part of the glue the intermittent abuse causes the bond now with the glue cognitive dissonance And then everything that happens within that, do they start to play on like more of your emotions with the shame and the guilt of if you leave or in fact in your book you talk about because you're just give people a very quick fast forward and then we're going to rewind. You're now a psychotherapist who now has clients that help women get through this. Yes. What an amazing ending. So in the book, one of your clients is called Juno. Yes. And you talk about a story where she was trying to be attractive to her husband. OK. Because they were having a fight or something. And so she was trying to maybe if I can make the piece. Let me try something on it. He rejects her, they fight about it. And she feels so much shame and guilt when she calls the cops that she then doesn't actually say the truth. Correct. Talk to me about that, tell me the story, and then why we women, they're so much shame, even when we're like being abused. They get into a tussle, right? And so when the police come instead of saying that her husband was abusive, she protects him. But he ends up saying she was abusive and she ends up getting arrested. And that's the danger here, right? Because if you're dealing with someone who's selfish and entitled and only things about themselves, you know, they're going to throw you under the bus like she got thrown under the bus and that's a very true story. She did end up in jail. She's doing okay now. But yeah, she had lost herself so much that she forgot that she mattered in the world, and she made him matter more, and she protected him, and then he got her in a lot of trouble. And I write about this in the book too, and it's really important is that I write about personality traits, right? And so some people, like I am one of them, I square very high in agreeableness. So that means I'm loyal, I'm tolerant, I'm altruistic, I'm very relational, relationships are everything to me, hence my am a therapist, right? Those are all really nice qualities, but not in the hands of the wrong person, they get weaponized. And so even more than calling somebody a people pleaser, it's calling them a pro-social individual. Well, social individual, interesting. Right. They want, they love relationships. They value them. And so that, but that in the hands of the wrong person can get you into a lot of trouble. Now, and I have become friends and you're going to cherish those qualities. You're going to respect them. You're going to admire them, but not with a pathological person. They will exploit them. Another big quality about a pathological person is they're always the victim. What do you, do you call that victim signaling? Yes. So he's now her victim, right? Which couldn't have been any further from the truth. He was cheating on her. He was lying to her. He was abusing her. He was calling her a terrible, horrible name, fat, ugly, this and that. Yeah. So, but then what they do is they victim signal and they pretend to be the victim because they know that it elicits empathy in other people or in us. But then also, the victim part of it is almost like they get out of jail free-card, right? Where they're like, well, you made me do this because you treated me like this. That's right. And there's a story about the woman whose husband was naked with another woman,

takes a photograph.

Yes.

And then sends it to her and says,

you made me do this.

Yes.

What did she do?

You would think, if you're not in that relationship,

you haven't got that hooked, you haven't had that history.

Anyone this one would be like,

what a kid, right?

And you would bounce, you would like,

this tonight, you would never speak to him again.

Right. And you would bounce, you would like, this night, you would never speak to him again. But what did she do actually? Well, you know, and then we get into the complexity of it, right? She's financially dependent upon him. She has two children, right? She has a sick mother that she's managing, right? So maybe she's not being her sexy itself at the time, which we know happens in life. So then, you know, she's no longer with him, you know, happy to say that. But yeah, you, I just sit there and hold space for the grief and the sadness and without judgment and give them this, give her the space to feel what she needs to feel. And then, okay, how do we handle that? You know, how do we get you strong enough and resource you enough so that you, so that she did feel the strength to leave him eventually. Yeah, and it's never my place to say when, you know, but I always say to myself, my poor therapist, I went to her every single Monday at 1 p.m. for seven years and she listened to me. So if she could listen to me through my first marriage and I can listen. Yeah. I've heard you say that certain therapists can also gaslight you. Yes. Talk to me about that because in these moments where maybe something we're saying right now is triggering someone and say, okay, maybe I do need therapy to help get out of this relationship. Yes. Sometimes we end up going to the wrong person that gives us the wrong advice that actually ends up being worse for us. Therapists are people too. They bring their own biases into the room, their own histories, and you know, it's that sound incredulous. I mean like how could that person stay based upon that story, right? Like you made me do this laying on top of another woman naked, but the woman already feels so much shame and self-blame and judgment. And when therapists say, you know, I can't believe you stayed like, why are you staying? It takes four to seven times for a woman to attempt leaving usually to leave a trauma bond. And there can just be little microaggressions in the way a therapist speaks to somebody about that. And then, you know, hopefully people leave because they trust their God again and just feel like, wait, this doesn't feel safe. Because, again, often when a woman does leave, can be the most dangerous time. So you have to be really prepared emotionally, physically, financially to do that. Yeah, because when you, I guess, said that you were going to leave, he threatened you, correct? Oh, yeah. He did more than threaten me. Yeah. What happened as I had said to him, you have to get sober. I'm not going to sit here and just watch you kill yourself anymore. This isn't sanity. And that's when he took my jewelry and clothing and through them in the fireplace and let them on fire. Yeah, and got very, just verbally abusive and mean. And I actually left because I need to come up with a plan and I went to my mother's and my children were totally safe. With my housekeeper at the time, I knew that they were completely safe. And when I came back is when he got violent with me and kicked me down the stairs. Yeah, so that once you really stands up to somebody like this and threaten them, not threaten them, but really speak your truth and use your voice and say you're going to leave da da da da da. That can really, I mean, I didn't know back then I probably shouldn't have done it when he was on drugs. So that's my first piece of advice. So I'll ever tell someone you're leaving them at that moment. But he was actually taking my daughter. So I had to chase them. And didn't he say you're only going to leave here in a body back? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's that intimidating, dominating, threatening. We call them scorched earth statements. These big grandiose statements. If you heard the phrase, I mean, I had this growing up, sticks and stones, may break my bones, words will never hurt. And you heard that phrase? Yes. I think that's all up for utter disaster because I think we dismiss the words, we dismiss the language as being dangerous. Yeah. And even in your book, you write about one of your clients that wished that they had gotten hit. Yes. So that they had a concrete reason to leave. Correct. Emotional and verbal abuse, right? Immunipulation or betrayal, they cost so much pain that nobody can see. They cost so much pain that nobody can see. So then people look at you and you're like, oh, you're fine. You're out grocery shopping. You're doing this or doing that. But inside you feel like you're dying because of, you know, you think about coercive control. So at the end of a trauma bond, it's all about control, right? So you have the dominating and intimidating, threatening piece of it, the isolating piece of it, and then in the other column, you have the belittling, the degrading, the gas sliding, the psych- the manipulation, right? So you're going against a lot of different things and that's really why I name them and educate people so that they know that this is what's happening to them because when you're in it and somebody, let's say cheats on you and you catch them and they say, no, no, no, that was my friend. He was emailing her. I was doing it for my friend that Don't pay attention to that. That's a lie. It's gaslighting. And you need to know that that's somebody's doing that to you. But did anybody ever when, as you were leaving him, was anybody like, oh, you shouldn't leave him? Were they trying to, did they understand? I think at that point everybody, because it was so extreme. Yes. Because our experience was so extreme, but I could understand for other people, because a lot of times coercive control and abuse really happens at home. It doesn't happen especially if you're dealing with a grandiose narcissist who cares about their image and wants to present a good image. I mean, so many of my patients' husbands are big public figures in their community. So they act very nice in public. And then when somebody says, I'm leaving, they're like, why? Didn't you get accused of leaving him because he eventually, because he obviously had to go to prison? Yes. Yeah, that's a real pet peeve of mine. That's a real pet peeve of mine because people will say, oh, you left him because you lost all his money. And it's like, no, I left him because I was abused. And he got an ankle bracelet on and I knew I was safe. That's why I picked that moment to leave. Because I knew I could do it because now he was the government's problem. What are you though, that probably made it a little easier for you. Yes. So how would you suggest other people that may be listening right now, that maybe obviously it's not that extreme? Yes. And that I really hope they don't freaking wait to get kicked down the stairs like you. Yes. One are the things that people can start to identify?

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