Hi, I'm Annamarie Cox. Welcome to With Friends Like These Converts edition.

Now, so far this season we've learned a lot about how the brain resists changing beliefs,

and we've had a chance to talk about the effect of mass protest on what the society is a whole

believes. But this is our first show to feature an individual who is a convert. But I think you'll

agree it's worth the wait. Our guest is my friend and friend of the pod Derek Black.

Now, today Derek is a graduate student in medieval history. He lives in Washington, DC,

and if you follow him on Instagram, you'll see he's been at several of the Black Lives Matters

marches there. He's a social justice warrior on Twitter. He has occasional jab, conservative

commentators, and whatnot. He is basically like almost every other friend I have. Except

not even 10 years ago. He was an ardent advocate of white nationalism with his own white

nationalist radio show. He founded Stormfront, which is still one of the main organizing and social

hubs for white nationalists across the country. David Duke is his godfather. What happened?

Well, it would take a book to explain it in the detail it deserves, and fortunately there is one.

Rising out of hatred, the awakening of a former white nationalist by Eli Sazlow,

you can read it or you can listen to the show we did with them in 2018.

I decided to ask Derek back because my own view of his story has changed a bit.

I used to think it was a conversion narrative about leaving white nationalism.

I've come to believe, and I know he has too, that the more important conversion experience he's had

is about his realization that renouncing outspoken white nationalist activism only let him join

a society where white nationalism is still the organizing principle. We just don't talk about it.

So he converted again to what he is today. Derek came on the show to talk about going from being a

racist to not a racist to an anti-racist. Derek Black coming right up.

...