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The David Frum Show

When Caring Becomes Counterculture

The David Frum Show

The Atlantic

Politics, News, News Commentary

4.62.4K Ratings

🗓️ 25 February 2026

⏱️ 60 minutes

🧾️ Download transcript

Summary

On this week’s episode of “The David Frum Show,” Atlantic staff writer David Frum opens with his take on President Trump’s reaction to a recent Supreme Court defeat on tariffs, arguing that the real issue is not just economics but the president’s drive for unchecked power. Then David is joined by Tim Miller of “The Bulwark” to unpack Tim’s recent trip to Minneapolis and what he saw on the ground amid ongoing ICE enforcement operations in the Twin Cities. They explore why younger Americans find “Resist libs” cringe and how that cynicism has helped fuel Trump’s politics. David and Tim also debate whether Never Trump conservatives are losing the core values that once defined them and whether that evolution is necessary in order to actually take on Trump. Finally, David revisits the history and meaning of the State of the Union address, questioning whether this long-standing ritual needs rethinking in the Trump era. Get more from your favorite Atlantic voices when you subscribe. You’ll enjoy unlimited access to Pulitzer-winning journalism, from clear-eyed analysis and insight on breaking news to fascinating explorations of our world. Atlantic subscribers also get access to exclusive subscriber audio in Apple Podcasts. Subscribe today at TheAtlantic.com/Listener. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Transcript

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0:00.0

Hello, and welcome to the David Frum show. I'm David Frum, a staff writer at the Atlantic.

0:16.7

My guest this week will be Tim Miller, host of the Ballworks Daily podcast. My literary topic this week won't be a book.

0:22.7

It will be a discussion of the ritual and performance of the state of the union address.

0:27.2

And I will get to that after the interview with Tim Miller.

0:30.4

But first, some opening thoughts on the dramatic recent events.

0:34.6

There are so many that one can hardly begin to tally them all.

0:37.4

I record this podcast the day

0:39.5

before the president is to deliver the state of the union address. You will see it or hear it at the

0:45.2

earliest, the morning after the president gives the state of the union address. So you will know more

0:50.1

than I do about what happens. I have no idea, although I can make some guesses. I'm going to

0:55.1

guess there's going to be a lot of ranting and raving in the state of the union address about the

0:59.3

Supreme Court and the recent tariff decision. And one of the questions that should spring to mind

1:05.5

is why is the president so very, very upset the Supreme Court struck down the tariffs he's been announcing

1:12.9

over the past year. I mean, I get it. No one likes to lose. This is an important issue for him,

1:17.0

but it's not like he doesn't have recourse. He continues to hold a majority in both House and Senate.

1:23.0

The Supreme Court has said your tariff measures would be fine if they came from Congress.

1:27.3

You just can't do them alone.

1:29.1

Why not announce in the state of the union? I've drafted a tariff bill. I'm sending it to Congress tomorrow.

1:35.5

I look forward to you enacting it at your earliest convenience. There are enough Republicans, enough in this House and Senate, and there's some anti-trade Democrats, you might get a majority.

1:45.7

Why not just pass the bill and do it the legal way that the Supreme Court pointed out to him?

1:50.5

Why is he falling back instead on all these convoluted other schemes for using imaginary balance of

1:56.4

payments crises, which don't really exist anymore in a day of floating exchange rates,

...

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