The international order, as we've known it, has been effectively unraveled by Xi

Jinping, Vladimir Putin and Donald Trump in different ways.

And I think what we are trying to understand is what does this unraveling look like.

I think in many ways, the conditions that we see around the world are consistent with

a pre-war environment.

Now we have this new, you know, not new, but new administration in the form of Trump,

trying to stitch together this alternative worldview about the way that big powers should interact.

And as we mentioned at the start, being much more sympathetic to the kind of

attitude towards global politics that Xi and Putin exemplify rather than countries like the UK

and European countries in Australia what should we understand about the transition out of the post-war order that is being ushered in by the U.S.'s new sympathy for the way that China and Russia see the world?

In terms of where we're headed?

Yes.

What are we going into and how destabilized is what we have all grown up with?

Yeah.

I think...

So I think the international order, as we've known it, has been effectively unraveled.

You know, and I think it's been unraveled by three people, by Xi Jinping, Vladimir

Putin and Donald Trump in different ways.

I think she is the trade bit we spoke about earlier.

And the way most of that broke, I think, the trading system internationally, Putin,

it's the full-scale invasion of Ukraine and really the reemergence of major war in Europe with the view to

annexing additional territory. And I think with Donald Trump, it's really seeing allies more as

...