What’s Really Going On in Russia?

The Ezra Klein Show

New York Times Opinion

Society & Culture, Government, News

4.6 • 11K Ratings

🗓️ 30 June 2023

⏱️ 69 minutes

🔗️ Recording | iTunes | RSS

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Summary

Last weekend, in the course of about 36 hours, Vladimir Putin faced — and then survived — one of the most serious challenges to his rule in over 20 years. An armed rebellion led by Yevgeny Prigozhin, the head of a Russian mercenary group, took control of a southern military town, and then advanced toward Moscow, coming within about 125 miles of the city. Then, as suddenly as the rebellion began, it was over: Prigozhin was quickly exiled to Belarus without facing criminal charges — an outcome that shocked many Russia watchers. Why did Prigozhin stage this rebellion in the first palace? Why did Putin respond the way he did? What are the implications for the future of Putin’s rule — and the broader war in Ukraine? There are few people who understand the Putin regime as deeply as Stephen Kotkin, a pre-eminent scholar of Russian history at Stanford. We discuss Prigozhin’s complex motivations, why Putin didn’t shut down Prigozhin’s critiques before they escalated to the point of armed rebellion, how to interpret reports that members of Putin’s inner circle were aware of the rebellion plot, how Prigozhin’s march created an “unwitting referendum” that could threaten the stability of Putin’s regime, the bizarre cease-fire arranged by Belarusian president Aleksandr Lukashenko, why Putin didn’t kill or jail Prigozhin, how this series of events could impact the outcome of the war in Ukraine and more. (Note: This episode was recorded on Wednesday, June 28. It does not reflect any news developments that have emerged since.) Book Recommendations: Chagall by Jackie Wullschlager Invisible China by Scott Rozelle and Natalie Hell Classified by David Bernstein Listen to this podcast in New York Times Audio, our new iOS app for news subscribers. Download now at nytimes.com/audioapp Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at [email protected]. You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast, and you can find Ezra on Twitter @ezraklein. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs. This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Emefa Agawu and Kristin Lin. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris, with Rollin Hu, Mary Marge Locker and Kate Sinclair. Engineering by Jeff Geld and Efim Shapiro. Our senior editor is Rogé Karma. The show’s production team also includes Annie Galvin. Original music by Isaac Jones. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The executive producer of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. And special thanks to Sonia Herrero.

Transcript

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0:00.0	From New York Times' opinion, this is the Ezra Klein Show.
0:23.0	Before we begin, we are doing another Ask Me Anything episode, our quarterly AMA.
0:27.9	This would be the last one before I go on Bookly for a bit, so if you've got anything
0:31.3	you want to hear me answer on the show, anything at all, send it into Ezra Klein Show at
0:35.6	nytimes.com with the subject line AMA.
0:41.3	But to today's show and to just the world, what the hell happened in Russia last weekend?
0:48.3	All of a sudden we had Russian mercenaries from the Wagner group marching not on Ukraine,
0:52.6	but on Russia.
0:53.6	They took control of the city, they shot town helicopters and they advanced about 125
0:58.2	miles outside Moscow.
1:00.6	They were led by Evgeny Purgosian, who swore, no no no, this was not an attempted coup
1:04.5	of Putin.
1:05.5	It was just an effort to topple the corrupt and ineffective military leadership Putin
1:10.6	appointed and relies on and surrounds himself with.
1:14.6	Then unexpectedly, a ceasefire was negotiated by Belarusian president Alexander Lukashenko.
1:21.0	Somehow in that deal there were no criminal charges, no criminal charges at all for
1:26.3	Purgosian and he got a secure exile at least in theory.
1:30.4	I mean that was something new, you can march on Russia and Putin will let you out not
1:35.0	only alive but without even facing charges.
1:38.3	So what was this?
1:39.8	Was it a mutiny?
1:41.6	A coup attempt?
	...

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